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  1. #21

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    Just saw your most recent post Mariam. Please don't paint rural residents out to be victims. This is America, and I can move if I so choose. People make decisions, and sometimes sacrifices to live where they like. There are plenty of poor people in urban areas likewise, plenty of wealthy people in rural areas. I don't begrudge someone in a urban or suburban area their lifestyle. We can't force others to conform to our choices.

    That's all.
    Homeschooling two sons (14 and 16) from day one. Atheist.
    Eclectic, Slackschooler covering 8th and 10th grades this year.

  2. T4L In Forum Jan20
  3. #22

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    I went to several private religious schools. If ANYONE actually thinks they are about a better education, they haven't actually BEEN to one. Because they aren't. They are about indoctrination into the religion. Most of them will ONLY pull teachers who graduated from religious colleges. The 3 I went to all had a list of rules (extensive) of what teachers were, and were not allowed to do outside of school, so the retention rate was crap outside of the few elementary teachers who had been there since the dawn of time. we went through 4 English teachers in my 4 years at the last religious school. 3 math teachers, 2 science teachers, and 2 history teachers. In 4 years. Public school may suck, but trust me, private religious schools are SO far from the answer they shouldn't even be in the equation. It's bad enough that churches can claim "religion" and get out of paying taxes, even though they preach politics from the pulpit and do about as much charity as the average rock, BUT, to think that MY taxes would go to support some other kid being convinced that if they don't follow that religion, they are EVIL? Oh HELL NO. At my parents last church, it was connected to the school. You know how many kids we had in the church that DIDN'T go to that school? 0. Because the church convinced all the good little followers that to be REALLY good, they had to send their kids to the religious school to keep them from being turned into whores or drug addicts at the local public school. $10K a student. Class sizes of 25 kids (so $250K per class) and the teachers made a whopping $35k a year. The church got out of doing charity by saying "the school is our charity". Uh-huh.

    My money going to that sort of hell? NOPE. And trust me, the kids will NOT be better educated. Except about the Bible. THAT they will know. for all the good it will do them in the real world.

  4. #23

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    Separation of Church and State. No matter what any politician has promised, or is perceived to have promised, nobody is taking the tax money of another person to fund their child's xtian education. It wouldn't pass Constitutional muster, so I don't worry myself with such things. If you don't wish for your child to learn at a religious school, then don't send them. However, I see no reason to deny a parent the right to send their OWN kid there, and one BIG reason that they can.....it's called the Constitution. Their are protections for that, so again, relax.

    I DO want to know why it's a problem for xtian school parents to get a tax credit, for the time their child is in xtian school? Likewise, I TOO, would like to get some kind of tax credit for the time that I am homeschooling MY kids. In answer to Topsy's original question, I certainly DO hope that this Admin gives homeschoolers and xtian school families more voice. (BTW, I keep saying xtian school, but should probably say private since I am aware their are other types out there....it's just seems the aversion, for some, is the xtianity part)

    I pay just over $3,000 annually in taxes for education ALONE. I'd bet some of you pay more. Like the rest of you, I pay twice! I have no problem with kicking in to help other's kids once mine are grown....for the good of my country, BUT, to pay my taxes and then also have to pay to educate my kids.....it's pretty upsetting. I do it, because I have no choice, other than enroll my kids at the local school. So I choose that sacrifice, and open the wallet.

    Now, I know the argument is that "well, what about accountability?" First off...I'm not asking for my neighbors to give me THEIR money. Secondly....if we have homeschooling laws, what's the problem with following them in order to get a bit of YOUR OWN taxes back? Don't we have to follow the law anyway? Otherwise the opposing argument seems to be, "go ahead and mess up your kids, but give us your money?" THAT undermines our choice to homeschool as a lesser education than public schooling, No? Aren't we then submitting to second-class status, and going along with their narrative? "We believe public schooling is the only way to go!"

    Yes, there are families that non-school, and abuse happens. However, there are PLENTY of public school kids where this goes on too. Math matters. Think of all the un-engaged, or worse, abusive parents. I'd guess that most of those type of parents don't want the kid at home most of the day anyway and want to send the kid to school, though. We've had this argument before.... I'm game for having a annual check up with your chosen family doctor, to be filed with your homeschooling records, but that's me.

    My MAIN issue with the way this thread has turned, is that it sounds to me like the argument is that a parent shouldn't be able to choose HOW to educate their child. That is nonsense. THAT is what the homeschooling movement started as....remember? And as for the "white-flight" argument, it's the same one that has been used against homeschooling for many years. Just google Homeschooling White Flight.....does that make us all Racist if we are White Homeschoolers then? Because I've got news for you, some people think so. What do you think?
    Homeschooling two sons (14 and 16) from day one. Atheist.
    Eclectic, Slackschooler covering 8th and 10th grades this year.

  5. #24

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    @Mariam Thanks for responding, and yah, you didnt mention slippery slope.

    Im sure there are more than just the two examples I mentioned.... those are just two of differing types which I have experience with (our charter), and one thats in a big building about five minutes from my house. I dont think charters would be so popular here if they werent doing a good job.
    A part of why they can do a good job is that freedom from the same standards (which Im going to call bureaucracy) that the neighborhood schools are subject to.
    I would wager that homeschooling (and hybrid homeschooling) is more popular here than it is in other states, because of the charter network. There were some twenty homeschooling charters alone in my county the last time I looked it up. I would even guess there are more secular homeschoolers.

    Why arent there charters like crazy in other states? I dont know. I imagine the ed code isnt set up in a way to allow for it easily. Thats just a guess though, and uggggg the disaster of Florida charters. If the gross things like k12 and connections are able to squeeze into the states... I dont know, but dont think the answer is saying "screw you charters!"

    @aservarial I honestly share your repugnance and revulsion at the idea of my tax dollars going to fund religious indoctrination. And I would love to see churches lose their tax status except for objectively charity activities.
    But Im sort of getting sick of laws protecting us from ourselves. My kids will be in carseats through high school, if laws continue on their trends.
    Saying NO, we cant in rease school options because some religious people will take their kids out of public school and teach then noah and the dinosaurs... becomes ridiculous of me minding other peoples business. These people are going to indoctrinate their kids anyways, and either are or arent insulating them from the outside world (by homeschooling already).
    Even with your religious indoctrination, and my husbands indocrtination (he also survived 8 years of religious school), both of you were able to step away.
    At some point, you have to say "as stupid as i think your decisions are, theyre your decisions to make". People gonna indoctrinate their kids. But wouldnt it be nice to have more secular alternatives available to people who want a better education for their kids than the neighborhood school?
    Homeschooling DS13, DS6.

    Atheist.

    My spelling was fine, then my brain left me.

  6. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexsmom View Post
    @Mariam Thanks for responding, and yah, you didnt mention slippery slope.

    Im sure there are more than just the two examples I mentioned.... those are just two of differing types which I have experience with (our charter), and one thats in a big building about five minutes from my house. I dont think charters would be so popular here if they werent doing a good job.
    A part of why they can do a good job is that freedom from the same standards (which Im going to call bureaucracy) that the neighborhood schools are subject to.
    I would wager that homeschooling (and hybrid homeschooling) is more popular here than it is in other states, because of the charter network. There were some twenty homeschooling charters alone in my county the last time I looked it up. I would even guess there are more secular homeschoolers.

    Why arent there charters like crazy in other states? I dont know. I imagine the ed code isnt set up in a way to allow for it easily. Thats just a guess though, and uggggg the disaster of Florida charters. If the gross things like k12 and connections are able to squeeze into the states... I dont know, but dont think the answer is saying "screw you charters!"
    AM, you are right, it is too simplistic to say screw the charters. - Ultimately I think parents need to use what is best from what is available. If charters are what is best then use them. If a school I found was a charter and that is what was best for us, that is what I would use. I would use vouchers if they were offered and if needed, even if I voted against them. In the end, I would not let my kid suffer even if I don't agree with how the options are presented.

    Unfortunately education seems to have gotten so complicated. I really think when it comes down to it, when people are there to make a profit, then someone gets screwed. If I had to put a firm line on anything, I think families are getting screwed with the money-making ventures. It used to only be the textbook companies, but now it is so pervasive. Testing, textbooks, and the schools themselves. Discounting the knowledge of parents, who know their kids & teachers, who have been trained to teach, is a huge problem in the system. Politicians act like a machine can teach our kids. We know our kids and can teach them with that understanding and teachers understand how to teach on a broader scale, but corporate interests are overriding that. Ultimately, I am upset that our tax dollars are used for corporate welfare.
    A mama who teaches college writing, as well as help her 12-year-old in
    choosing his own life adventure. Using Global Village School to support our desire to develop a sense of social justice and global awareness.

  7. #26

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    I pay taxes that go to educate someone else's children. My parents paid taxes to educate someone else's children even though they ALSO paid to educate me elsewhere. My taxes also go to fund roads I will never drive on, airports I will never use, firemen I will (hopefully) never need, and police that I will also (hopefully) never need. My taxes go to a LOT of things that I, personally, will never utilize. I don't understand why that is a bad thing.

    AM, I stepped away because it was LITERALLY either leave or die. I attempted suicide 4 times before I got out. I spent YEARS refusing to get married, even though I loved my partner, because "wife" was a 4 -letter word to me. WE AREN'T "protecting us from ourselves". We are protecting the children from parents too damn stupid to see common sense. We have rules in society. Rules that protect everyone else from the people too stupid to be relied on for basic common sense.

    ML, as far as "it would never pass Congress", we have "In God We Trust" on our MONEY. The 10 Commandments were in MANY government buildings until extremely recently. Relying on the morons in Congress to NOT even SEE "separation of church and state" isn't something I'm willing to do. As many Christians advocate "separation of church and state" was meant to keep the state out of the church, but not meant to keep "good christians" from making sure that god stays involved in politics. And YES, this was taught in church. Look up Generation Joshua. It was founded after I fled, but those components very much existed.

  8. #27

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    Aselvarial,

    I know where my taxes go. Thanks for the lesson.

    I said it would never pass "Constitutional muster". Different branch of government.

    I'm not gonna argue this with you, because what you continue to bring up, is a really horrible personal story....and I'm really sorry for you about that.

    I do have to say, though, I know quite a few "good christians", really....I do.
    Homeschooling two sons (14 and 16) from day one. Atheist.
    Eclectic, Slackschooler covering 8th and 10th grades this year.

  9. #28

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    I was wondering if we might share a couple of links to (relatively) neutral news articles to keep updated on the unfolding of DeVos' ideas. This is a topic that is going to take a lot more development of the ideas and explaining it in detail so that everyone understands. I don't even feel qualified to comment on it because without knowing exact details, how can I share my opinion of her proposals?

    Is anyone else craving more specific details of how this is all supposed to work out?
    Last edited by Relaxed Homeschooling; 03-07-2017 at 01:19 AM. Reason: spelling correction
    Lori B.

    My Blog: Relaxed Homeschooling

  10. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexsmom View Post
    Im just totally mystified why the hostility to charter schools as being elitist and evil. Maybe we shouldnt focus on the flop of Florida, instead look at places where its working.
    AM, I see your pov. However, I will explain why people consider it elitist. I have a friend who is a Principal at a rural intermediate school with a minimal budget. She most definitely thinks they are elitist. Someone decided to start a charter school in her area, sent mailers announcing the future school, etc. She was super upset and I couldn't understand why (I thought the "vision" of the charter was great). She then explained, "Do you think the kids that need that school the most are going to get to go there? They don't have the kinds of parents that will fill out applications to send them there. So, I will be stuck with all the kids who don't want to go to school and have zero support systems at home. Their parents don't care about homework or how they do in school. When I have a mix of students, the ones that have supportive parents make the other ones want to keep up. And, those kids help them, too. Sometimes, those parents will see their messed up situation and help those kids along with their own. A bunch of the good families are already letting me know they will be applying. This is not good for our society as a whole. If I can't keep these kids motivated they will drop out as soon as they can which benefits no one. So, the people that least need the charter basically get private school for free and the ones that need extra help get minimal help because I don't have money for extra bodies. Right now, I have great parent volunteers that help every day. I have teachers wanting to leave for the new school, too. WTF, am I supposed to do with less of everything and no support from the community? All those families that go above and beyond will be gone."
    That is why...
    Kids are so much more than a test score.
    Qualities not measured by a test: creativity, persistence, curiosity, humor, self-discipline, empathy, humility and so many more!

  11. #30

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    Luv2HS, it all sounds fair...until it is your own child who is 'strong' and, therefore, is stuck in an under-stimulating academic environment, wasting his/her precious time while 'helping' other kids get out of the rut that their own parents have put them in. No, thank you, sacrificing your own children for the possible, rather unlikely, good of other children would not do for me.
    mom to 3 girls: DD10, DD9, DD6

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