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schwartzkari
06-21-2010, 03:06 PM
Went out to dinner last night with my inlaws for Father's Day. My daughter bought a special card for him and she worked pretty hard to sign her name and her little brothers name inside the card. Instead of saying thank you, my fatherinlaw corrected my daughter's handwriting! She's FIVE. It really ticked me off. So I said "we haven't quite worked on the concept of commas just yet, but we are getting there." (she didn't put a comma between her name and her brother's name.) and my fatherinlaw says "I've been meaning to ask you, how do you keep track of school records for the state?" When I explained to him that I didn't have to (Yay Texas! LOL.) BUT that I do anyway, he got all weird on me and started talking about how it could be considered lazy and that I should follow a public school curriculum at home.

Um. yea. If I wanted to follow a public school curriculum I would just send my kiddos to a public school. What a concept. *rolls eyes.* Also, I took serious offense to the use of the word "lazy." I have our lessons planned out for the next year, already working on the year after that and I'm finishing my teaching degree in the process. Yes. I am so lazy.

Anyways, the reason all this pissed me off so much, is because my fatherinlaw has been the one family member who HAS NOT said anything negative about homeschooling. We announced we were going to homeschool 3 years ago. My motherinlaw freaked out but has since come around and loves the idea. My side of the family thinks I'm some sort of saint for taking on my children's education. My fatherinlaw really never said one word about the whole idea. Our homeschool will "count" starting in August and I feel like he's freaking out because we are actually going thru with it! I told my husband I had an upset stomach last night so we left dinner early. My husband knew exactly what was wrong with me and promptly took me home. Love that man, LOL.

Okay, I feel a little better now. I was hoping that after 3 years, I wouldn't hear anything negative from my family again but I suppose that was just wishful thinking. *sigh*

MamaB2C
06-21-2010, 03:10 PM
Oh your poor daughter, after working so hard. We have discussed it a lot, but I have a feeling that some people are also assuming we won't go through with it when it comes down to "official" time, next Fall, and so aren't saying anything right now.

paganmomblog
06-21-2010, 03:39 PM
Ugh that is so difficult to deal with. Hopefully once you are "official" he will see how well it's working.

BTW, unless I missed something somewhere, if your daughter signed her name and her little brother's name there wouldn't be a comma anyway. At most there should be "and" or "&". And considering they are signatures and not an essay the rules are dismissed anyway!

Busygoddess
06-21-2010, 03:42 PM
Kudos to you for not telling your father-in-law off, right then & there. I know I would have gone off, especially for being so ungracious about the card.

Sarbare0704
06-21-2010, 04:06 PM
Wow! That is terrible! As of now my mom is one of the only family members that know about us home schooling and she hasn't really said anything bad about it just says things like "oh yeah your homeschooling!" in a snotty tone. Im kind of used to it though I seem to get flack about all of the parenting decisions I make ie: Breastfeeding, having our son at home, not vaxing and so on! I guess I get to buckle down and deal with it because I have a long time of homeschooling ahead!

Snoopy
06-21-2010, 05:18 PM
I'm with Brandi, I would have told him to f*** off. ((HUGS)) Unfortunately, it sounds like you're going to have to develop a thick skin around your family or tell them to MYOB. Sheesh, telling you you're lazy?! OOOH, that makes me so angry!

hjdong
06-21-2010, 05:32 PM
What a jerk. If it makes you feel any better, my FIL corrects my handwriting. He's an architect and is enormously persnickety. I've considered pointing out that writing in all caps is not grammatically correct, but instead I bite my tongue.

reversemigration
06-21-2010, 06:25 PM
Hang in there! However tempting it must have been to cut him off short, you did the right thing. (Personally, I'm with the Miss Manners school of acidly cold, yet polite, retorts.) I particularly like how he said it could be "considered lazy." He wasn't brave enough to come out and say it directly...instead he just dances around it.

In the end, though, just remember that you'll have the last laugh. Your kids are going to have some pretty remarkable advantages, given that they'll have you as their teacher. I suspect in the future there's going to be a story about how your FIL's jaw drops at the mention of an accomplishment. :)

belacqua
06-21-2010, 06:54 PM
Hang in there! However tempting it must have been to cut him off short, you did the right thing. (Personally, I'm with the Miss Manners school of acidly cold, yet polite, retorts.) I particularly like how he said it could be "considered lazy." He wasn't brave enough to come out and say it directly...instead he just dances around it.

In the end, though, just remember that you'll have the last laugh. Your kids are going to have some pretty remarkable advantages, given that they'll have you as their teacher. I suspect in the future there's going to be a story about how your FIL's jaw drops at the mention of an accomplishment. :)

Same here. I've gotten some decent mileage with, "How kind of you to take an interest."

And I agree that the "could be considered lazy" remark was especially weaselly. His logic eludes me; how does keeping more records than the law requires equate to lazy?

StartingOver
06-21-2010, 07:23 PM
I know I would not have been able to hold my tongue. Sorry your daughter had to go through that.

Wilma
06-21-2010, 09:12 PM
That stinks royally. Your poor dd. Did she catch on to any of this? I agree with Nathalie, you are either going to have to suck it up or tell the MYOB. I think I would have been sorely tempted to tell him to take a flying leap. What did you dh do? I mean, will he talk to him?

schwartzkari
06-21-2010, 11:51 PM
Thank you so much everyone, I'm feeling the love here :)

My husband and I have been together for almost 9 years and most of those 9 years my fatherinlaw has been a huge grump and it seems it has gotten worse since we had kids. My hubby always stands up for me and he tells me repeatedly to just let him take care of it, lol. And he always does. As it is right now, I am not speaking to my fatherinlaw and I already know our next family dinner will be awkward. It is definitely best that I use my manners and just remain calm and quiet about it. I really suck at voicing my opinion to someone's face and I certaintly don't want to come across as "dumb" to someone who supposedly is a member of MENSA. (I have yet to see those credentials...lol)

My fatherinlaw spoke directly to my daughter when talking about her "handwriting" on the card. She's too sweet to say anything else but "I know Grandpa, I'll try next time." and after that he spoke directly to me about the homeschooling. I don't think my daughter was listening to anything after that, she was too busy playing with My Little Pony stickers.

schwartzkari
06-21-2010, 11:54 PM
Ugh that is so difficult to deal with. Hopefully once you are "official" he will see how well it's working.

BTW, unless I missed something somewhere, if your daughter signed her name and her little brother's name there wouldn't be a comma anyway. At most there should be "and" or "&". And considering they are signatures and not an essay the rules are dismissed anyway!

Exactly! My daughter wrote "Love Eliana Ari" on the card. My fatherinlaw said there should be comma after Love and in between Eliana and Ari. Personally, I think it is just enough that a 5 year old understands the concept of a card, can fill it out and knows how to write her name and her brothers name, lol.

Museling
06-21-2010, 11:55 PM
Ugh that is so difficult to deal with. Hopefully once you are "official" he will see how well it's working.

BTW, unless I missed something somewhere, if your daughter signed her name and her little brother's name there wouldn't be a comma anyway. At most there should be "and" or "&". And considering they are signatures and not an essay the rules are dismissed anyway!

<insert big heart here> We sign where there is space on the card!

schwartzkari
06-21-2010, 11:58 PM
Wow! That is terrible! As of now my mom is one of the only family members that know about us home schooling and she hasn't really said anything bad about it just says things like "oh yeah your homeschooling!" in a snotty tone. Im kind of used to it though I seem to get flack about all of the parenting decisions I make ie: Breastfeeding, having our son at home, not vaxing and so on! I guess I get to buckle down and deal with it because I have a long time of homeschooling ahead!

I feel you, especially on the breastfeeding part. In my family, I'm the only woman who ever breastfed a baby! I nursed my daughter until she was 2 and I just finished weaning my son (he'll be 2 in December.) Good grief, you would have thought the world was ending because I nursed. The comments from family members are especially hurtful. I could care less what strangers think ;)

SunshineKris
06-22-2010, 03:01 AM
I am so sorry your FIL was such a jerk. Heck, I don't think they even get into commas, apostrophes and such until maybe the end of 1st grade, early 2nd in the public schools. And even then, there are plenty of adults who just don't get it. And even I goof sometimes. And the rules have changed on certain grammatical issues.

Soon enough he will be impressed by your kids and just how smart your kids are. They will likely be compared to other kids as being so much better, smarter, well behaved, polite, and on and on. And then you can say it's because they didn't learn the bad habits of other kids while at public school. :)

Riceball_Mommy
06-22-2010, 12:00 PM
That's terrible that he critiqued her like that. It's really annoying when your kids are doing something nice, sweet or just polite and some adult has to critique them or tease them about it. It's also awful that he called you lazy. You are going above and beyond what is required and I'm sure your curriculum is exceeding a public school curriculum.

Also it's odd to me that a you say you caught a lot of grief for breastfeeding. Especially since there seems to be so much pressure from the media (and sometimes just blogs) to breastfeed.

Museling
06-22-2010, 12:04 PM
I remember with a lot of the issues that I've had and the words of wisdom these wonderful people said to me on here (and now it's my mantra): These are YOUR children. You are their mom, educator, super hero, and everything else in between (and dad too). What you want to do with them is between you, your husband and your children. Don't give anyone else a say in that. It's nice to have the support of family members and friends but sometimes, no matter what you do, they're not going to be won over- just like the time you chose to...breastfeed over bottle, cry it out over cosleep, etc etc and ad nauseum. It comes down to people thinking that they have a voice in your family and they don't. They shouldn't. And it's hard, especially for parents of parents, to see what they're doing so until they cross the line -the line that you decide- be diplomatic. Give them the cookie that "you'll always keep options open", but just remember at the end of the day that there are only three people you are accountable to.

I did this for myself and the day I told my in laws that we are going ahead with homeschool, my in laws tried to say how we don't have the stick to it-ness to do this, I am a highschool drop out, a brand new school in the same district with a lot of the same teachers/students and admin is somehow going to be miraculously different from the literal hell hole he went to for kindergarten, I don't know what I am doing, what about my plans and my degree (I work pt for a theatre as a chef and I am getting my culinary degree- the job/schedule is perfect for me in money/time/and homeschool pursuits but they don't see that), Logan is going to fall so far behind despite our state spelling every incrimental step being laid out in crystal clear form.

This is what I told them, "This is what we see as the best option for him. I'm not going to be selfish about my career because it isn't his fault I decided to have him before I decided to become a chef. Besides, I love my job and wouldn't be leaving regardless of where he is going to school. You did not see the daily torment he went through and I am glad for that, but I will not willingly or blindly put him in the opportunity for that to happen again. We are making this decision because it is what we see as the best decision for our family."

What MIL said, "Well we don't agree, I-"

I cut her off, "I didn't ask you to."

Silence.

Most. Liberating. Experience. EVER!

Snoopy
06-22-2010, 01:00 PM
What MIL said, "Well we don't agree, I-"

I cut her off, "I didn't ask you to."

Silence.

Most. Liberating. Experience. EVER! BRAVO!!!!!! I love you Denise, you've come such a long way :)

MamaB2C
06-22-2010, 01:41 PM
It really is true that all choices can and are criticized. I remember having 2 different people angrily question my choice to use cloth diapers. Srsly? You care enough about what I put on my baby's butt to collect pee and poop to actually yell at me?

Now that DS is 4, and beloved by all, they have shut up for the most part. Still few signs of how homeschooling is going to go over in the finale. So far, only one person exhorting private Christian school as a means to meet his probably advanced academic needs, of course in reality it was a back door attempt to get us saved

belacqua
06-22-2010, 01:54 PM
It really is true that all choices can and are criticized. I remember having 2 different people angrily question my choice to use cloth diapers. Srsly? You care enough about what I put on my baby's butt to collect pee and poop to actually yell at me?



I hope you'll forgive my ignorance, but what about cloth diapers upset these people so much?

MamaB2C
06-22-2010, 02:02 PM
I have no idea. It seemed to me like my making a different choice than they had was taken as a criticism of their choices, if that makes sense. The words they both used were along the lines of "You are being ridiculous and will change to disposables the first time he poops, and when you do you should use brand X"

Because of infertility, everyone I know had kids well before I did...I don't know if they assumed I would be asking for lots of advice, or that I was clueless, or what, but I really did my own research and didn't consult with anyone. Maybe that hurt their feelings? I dunno. They also disagreed with my overall attachment parenting style and choice not to spank.

Museling
06-22-2010, 02:31 PM
I clothed because it's cheap (and I wanted the well worn in rags for cleaning), I co slept and 'paddled' when he was younger (w/my hand and was more about getting attention than as a punishment). What I love is that kids don't come with a manual and that you can make up your own manual as you go and that maybe the only rule that can be universally applied is consistency- lol, but even I'm guilty of throwing that one out the window from time to time!

paganmomblog
06-22-2010, 03:09 PM
I think that people forget we have a choice on how we parent. Kids don't fit into a box, what works well with one doesn't work well with another. Any parent of 2 or more kids can tell you that!

schwartzkari
06-22-2010, 04:07 PM
That's terrible that he critiqued her like that. It's really annoying when your kids are doing something nice, sweet or just polite and some adult has to critique them or tease them about it. It's also awful that he called you lazy. You are going above and beyond what is required and I'm sure your curriculum is exceeding a public school curriculum.

Also it's odd to me that a you say you caught a lot of grief for breastfeeding. Especially since there seems to be so much pressure from the media (and sometimes just blogs) to breastfeed.

Intially, I set out to nurse my daughter for the first six months and our nursing relationship went really well, I decided that I was comfortable nursing her until she was two. I tried to do the same thing with my son but he decided to self wean at 16 months. I would have let him nurse until this coming December. My family gave me some weird reasons to stop nursing. My favorite one happened more recently, "BUT he's a boy and shouldn't be doing that anymore." Yes, my son is a boy. A BABY BOY. I ended up really having to educate my family members on the benefits of nursings.

schwartzkari
06-22-2010, 04:12 PM
I remember with a lot of the issues that I've had and the words of wisdom these wonderful people said to me on here (and now it's my mantra): These are YOUR children. You are their mom, educator, super hero, and everything else in between (and dad too). What you want to do with them is between you, your husband and your children. Don't give anyone else a say in that. It's nice to have the support of family members and friends but sometimes, no matter what you do, they're not going to be won over- just like the time you chose to...breastfeed over bottle, cry it out over cosleep, etc etc and ad nauseum. It comes down to people thinking that they have a voice in your family and they don't. They shouldn't. And it's hard, especially for parents of parents, to see what they're doing so until they cross the line -the line that you decide- be diplomatic. Give them the cookie that "you'll always keep options open", but just remember at the end of the day that there are only three people you are accountable to.

I did this for myself and the day I told my in laws that we are going ahead with homeschool, my in laws tried to say how we don't have the stick to it-ness to do this, I am a highschool drop out, a brand new school in the same district with a lot of the same teachers/students and admin is somehow going to be miraculously different from the literal hell hole he went to for kindergarten, I don't know what I am doing, what about my plans and my degree (I work pt for a theatre as a chef and I am getting my culinary degree- the job/schedule is perfect for me in money/time/and homeschool pursuits but they don't see that), Logan is going to fall so far behind despite our state spelling every incrimental step being laid out in crystal clear form.

This is what I told them, "This is what we see as the best option for him. I'm not going to be selfish about my career because it isn't his fault I decided to have him before I decided to become a chef. Besides, I love my job and wouldn't be leaving regardless of where he is going to school. You did not see the daily torment he went through and I am glad for that, but I will not willingly or blindly put him in the opportunity for that to happen again. We are making this decision because it is what we see as the best decision for our family."

What MIL said, "Well we don't agree, I-"

I cut her off, "I didn't ask you to."

Silence.

Most. Liberating. Experience. EVER!

I admire you! There are a few choice people in my life (including the fatherinlaw) that I would love to sit down and tell them how it is going to be. I am such a soft-spoken person though and that drives me nuts about myself. I am really thankful for my husband because you are right, the only decisions and opinions that matter are between the parents and the child. My husband has been a really great support for me, especially with our homeschooling choices.

MamaB2C
06-22-2010, 04:35 PM
"BUT he's a boy and shouldn't be doing that anymore."

Some people are so weird. This is due to people sexualizing breasts...yes, they can be erogenous... but guess what, they have a natural purpose and that is TO FEED BABIES! It's not sexual at all!

schwartzkari
06-22-2010, 04:42 PM
Americans are so weird. This is due to people sexualizing breasts...yes, they can be erogenous... but guess what, they have a natural purpose and that is TO FEED BABIES! It's not sexual at all!


I agree. I take great pride in knowing that I fed my babies and kept them healthy. When I think about breasts, I think about breastfeeding. (my apologies to my husband! LMAO!)

I remember one time, I went to Michigan to visit my extended family one year. My daughter was about 8 months old and I went into the guest bedroom at my Uncle's house to nurse her. He didn't know I was in the room nursing and he came in looking for something for his computer. Mind you, I was always modest about nursing, kept my babies covered, even their feet! He walked into the room, turned white as a ghost and started yelling about how I should have locked the door. For pete's sake...you couldn't see anything! LOL.

SherryZoned
06-22-2010, 04:55 PM
Change is tough on people. No excuse for them to be jerks. But the way of thinking in the world is changing. We are not as accepting because the government or the public education system says it so.. SO IT MUST BE RIGHT! We are people with brains and the right to make choices about our children. I really can not stand when people make big issues out of random things like that. Let's worry more about human rights, children being fed or healthcare instead. Clearly you want what is best for YOUR children so you are choosing to homeschool!

(Breastfeeding, in my family women could not physically do it.. So I have to say I tried 3 times and it was a horrible experience due to my crappy milk genes LOL but kudos to those you can)

elkhollow
06-22-2010, 06:04 PM
My sister in law recently told me that my child was diagnosed with autism because I homeschooled and because I'm too permissive and soft-spoken as a mother. She told me she didn't believe dd WAS autistic, that I was causing her behavior with my parenting decisions. I was so shocked. I was completely unprepared for it. She is, or was, my best friend when she said it. I always had a feeling she didn't approve of the AP, BF, homeschooling lifestyle I have chosen, but she had never said anything to my face before. She told me about how they were treated as kids, as if that was a model of good parenting. I came from a very loving home and we do things differently. The fact that I don't abuse and scream at my children doesn't make me soft-spoken and permissive. I wish I had said that. I wish I had said that the person who diagnosed my daughter with autism has a medical degree and that might just trump her 25 years elementary school teaching experience. I wish I had said that no scientist or doctor on this earth believes parenting causes autism anymore. They thought that 60 years ago. We've learned a few things since then. I wish I'd said a lot of things. As it was, I was struck speechless for awhile. I don't remember what I eventually said but it was some sort of meek response.I was so unprepared for it, you know? When you're going to be around people you know to be hostile you sort of put on the armor ahead of time and you're ready if they start in.She and I have been friends for almost 15 years!!! I know I was very quiet for the rest of the evening, just disbelieving that she had said that to me. I thought maybe she'd apologize for her ignorance when I told her we'd had a second opinion from a neurologist who said that dd doesn't have Asperger's but she does have a touch of autism, and that there is absolutely no link between parenting and autism. All she said was, "Oh, good." And she hasn't mentioned it since. She was supposed to babysit for us this summer so we could go on a mini-vacation but I cancelled it last week. In the meantime my mother in law has had a go at me, too. That's far less shocking and certainly not as disturbing, and she wasn't rude about it. I just really don't need advice from a woman who handled sarcasm by slamming her daughter into a wall, kwim? I get a lot of support from my family, so that helps. Anyway, I wish I had been able to handle it like you did, Denise. I really admire your kind of courage. When did I become such a wimp? I'm a black belt, for heaven's sake. I can kick a** but I can't speak up for myself?! Pathetic.

BPier12
06-22-2010, 06:18 PM
When did I become such a wimp? I'm a black belt, for heaven's sake. I can kick a** but I can't speak up for myself?! Pathetic.

Ashley, I don't think that you are pathetic. You were blind-sided by someone you trusted and I think just about anybody in that situation would be rendered speechless from disbelief. You stated your case clearly here. Would it help you to write your SIL a letter telling her what you just told us?

Snoopy
06-22-2010, 07:16 PM
Ashley, I don't think you're pathetic either. Because you come from a loving family, you probably value family and relationships more than other people so the fact that a RELATIVE, a close one at that, blindsided you with this, doesn't make you a wimp at all. I, on the other hand, could care less about what family members (mine or his) think about what we do or what their opinions of my kids are. This is why I have no qualm in telling them to STFU if I need to. However, I do not have a black belt in anything and I'm pretty sure that a kindergartener could knock me down to the ground if I didn't see it coming. So I'm no thoughie!

(((HUGS))) Do what you need to do for your family, you don't owe anything to anyone else.

Museling
06-22-2010, 07:36 PM
I admire you! There are a few choice people in my life (including the fatherinlaw) that I would love to sit down and tell them how it is going to be. I am such a soft-spoken person though and that drives me nuts about myself. I am really thankful for my husband because you are right, the only decisions and opinions that matter are between the parents and the child. My husband has been a really great support for me, especially with our homeschooling choices.

It's hard to get there, I know but if I can do it anyone can. I've literally gone as a door mat for halloween one year (eh, gotta have a sense of humor about it, right?) I'm glad your husband is such a big support, around here we have him mostly deal with his mother and I deal with mine (she's on the other end of the spectrum being a fruit loop).

Museling
06-22-2010, 07:50 PM
Ashley-

Getting blindsided doesn't count. I got blindsided by my brother in law and there is no statute of limitations on calling someone out on poor behavior (I'm still waiting to fully get him back...). If your hurt then you have a right to tell her your feelings and I'd be sad to see a 15 year friendship be lost because of it. Does she have children? If not, you could rephrase it about her school children but say, "How would you like it if I came into your home/classroom and judged your performance as a parent/taecher based on a child having a cold? Saying that I caused Ce Ce's behavior is no different and it hurt me very much." That way she is clear on how you feel and you've given her a chance to apologize. (I've learned that sometimes people are too thick headed to realize they need to apologize sometimes unless clearly prompted, myself included!)

Sarbare0704
06-22-2010, 09:18 PM
It really is true that all choices can and are criticized. I remember having 2 different people angrily question my choice to use cloth diapers. Srsly? You care enough about what I put on my baby's butt to collect pee and poop to actually yell at me?


Oh man! This sounds just like some of my friends for months before my son was born and then months after they questioned me about not getting him circ'ed . Why the heck they were so concerned with my sons genitals was beyond me! I was not trying to pressure anyone into anything or even talk about it, they were just very worried about it I guess! I also get dumb comments about the cloth diapers! I dont really get it do they give others a hard time for liking Huggies too?

elkhollow
06-22-2010, 09:50 PM
I really need to write her a letter or just sit down over tea and have a heart-to-heart. And I will. I know she didn't say this to be spiteful, malicious, hurtful, or even judgmental. I know she loves my daughter and I'm still pretty sure she loves me. She felt strongly enough about the strength of our relationship that she spoke plainly about the situation as she saw it. And I invited it. I shared with her my feelings that dd had been misdiagnosed with Asperger's yet I knew there was something just not quite kosher, so to speak, and that's when she dropped her bomb. I'm embarrassed that I've allowed myself to be hurt when it obviously wasn't her intent to do so. I've tried really hard over the last two months to just let this go and to quit letting it bother me.

Nathalie, I completely agree that we shouldn't let the relatives' opinions bother us. I have always valued my sil's opinion, though. I have always thought she was a caring, warm, wonderful, loving person. I admire her for many reasons and I have valued our friendship immensely. When my mother passed away five years ago I found myself turning to her whenever I needed guidance from someone who had been there. She has two children, 18 and 17, and I never got the feeling that she was anything but a loving, fantastic mom. That's another reason it blindsided me. What she was saying to me was unlike anything I've heard her say before. Maybe this is all a misunderstanding. If it could only be something that simple!

I have to admit I'm feeling sheepish for even posting about this. The fact that I did lets me know I'm still terribly upset and I need to do something about it. I have a very bad habit of sulking and letting things fester. It's one of my darker personality flaws. Thank you all for listening, er, reading. I think I have a letter to write.

schwartzkari
06-22-2010, 09:57 PM
Ashley, I have a blackbelt too! I have laughed at myself several times before. "oh sure, I can spar with the best of them at Taekwondo tournaments but I can't speak to my own family members when they upset me?" I felt the same way after I typed up my original post on my fatherinlaw: Sheepish.

That's why I am so glad I have found this group online, very supportive and helpful. I'm so much better at voicing myself in writing than I am in person. However, the thought of writing my fatherinlaw (or my grandmother..but that's another story entirely!) a letter scares the hell out of me!

Snoopy
06-22-2010, 11:14 PM
Oh man! This sounds just like some of my friends for months before my son was born and then months after they questioned me about not getting him circ'ed . Why the heck they were so concerned with my sons genitals was beyond me! Probably because they were concerned that you son wouldn't look "normal" in the locker room.

Well I'm sorry but in France no one is circumcised (at least they weren't 20 years ago) but Jewish men and actually that's how the Nazis recognized Jews a lot of time. Anyway, when I came here and realized that most boys WERE circumcised, I thought it was very very weird (for one, graffiti is different here than in France, but I digress, lol) and when I found out that I was expecting a boy, I informed my then-husband that there was NO WAY that my kid was going to be mutilated. He was fine with it, but there was much pressure to do it in the hospital though (dr, nurses...). 3 boys later, none of them are circumcised. And none of them are athletes so we don't need to worry about the locker room :)

paganmomblog
06-22-2010, 11:18 PM
These days it also depends on where you live. When I had my son I knew I didn't want him circumsized and hubs agreed when the ped confirmed it was not necessary. I checked statistics locally and discovered almost half the boys born are not circumsized. So by the time my son is high school age, and if he is in high school, he isn't that different from his peers. That helped when my father (who doesn't even live here) went on his spiel on how our son would be ridiculed for being intact.

Riceball_Mommy
06-22-2010, 11:20 PM
Probably because they were concerned that you son wouldn't look "normal" in the locker room.

Well I'm sorry but in France no one is circumcised (at least they weren't 20 years ago) but Jewish men and actually that's how the Nazis recognized Jews a lot of time. Anyway, when I came here and realized that most boys WERE circumcised, I thought it was very very weird (for one, graffiti is different here than in France, but I digress, lol) and when I found out that I was expecting a boy, I informed my then-husband that there was NO WAY that my kid was going to be mutilated. He was fine with it, but there was much pressure to do it in the hospital though (dr, nurses...). 3 boys later, none of them are circumcised. And none of them are athletes so we don't need to worry about the locker room :)

I wouldn't pierce my little girl's ears when she was a baby. I don't know if I could have a boy circumcised for the same reason. It just seems like a lot pain to put a baby through. Besides can't they get it done when their older with anesthesia and pain killers?

Busygoddess
06-22-2010, 11:21 PM
Oh man! This sounds just like some of my friends for months before my son was born and then months after they questioned me about not getting him circ'ed . Why the heck they were so concerned with my sons genitals was beyond me! I was not trying to pressure anyone into anything or even talk about it, they were just very worried about it I guess! I also get dumb comments about the cloth diapers! I dont really get it do they give others a hard time for liking Huggies too?

Actually, several people had issue with the fact that I used disposable diapers and because I only breastfed Dea 4 months & Jay 2 months. I've been given dirty looks for not letting my kids run around the store like lunatics. I've been given dirty looks for having hubby take Jay to the car to wait while Dea & I finish shopping. I'm constantly told that I'm too strict because I won't let the kids veg in front of a screen all day, we don't own a video game system, they have to check in with me when they play outside & Jay can't be outside alone (we live right next to a very busy 4-lane street & the yard isn't fenced). So yeah, we all deal with criticisms of our parenting, from friends, family, total strangers, no matter what our choices are. There is always someone who sees what you do as the wrong way & unfortunately, many haven't learned to stay out things that don't involve (or affect) them.

paganmomblog
06-22-2010, 11:24 PM
I wouldn't pierce my little girl's ears when she was a baby. I don't know if I could have a boy circumcised for the same reason. It just seems like a lot pain to put a baby through. Besides can't they get it done when their older with anesthesia and pain killers?

They can but according to my ped the recovery is alot more painful for them when they are older, even with meds. Babies don't retain the memory of the pain like an older child or adult. Given the likelihood of boys needing a circumcision when they are older isn't very often so we figured it wasn't much of a risk.

Sarbare0704
06-22-2010, 11:25 PM
Besides can't they get it done when their older with anesthesia and pain killers?

Yes I think so, but what do you think the chances there is a boy out there that is going to say "sure cut off a couple inches I don't need it" ROFL

Riceball_Mommy
06-22-2010, 11:29 PM
They can but according to my ped the recovery is alot more painful for them when they are older, even with meds. Babies don't retain the memory of the pain like an older child or adult. Given the likelihood of boys needing a circumcision when they are older isn't very often so we figured it wasn't much of a risk.

Thanks for the info I didn't know about the longer recovery time. I'm not really planning on having any more children right now but it's good to know if I change my mind in the future (especially if I end up with a boy).

Riceball_Mommy
06-22-2010, 11:30 PM
Yes I think so, but what do you think the chances there is a boy out there that is going to say "sure cut off a couple inches I don't need it" ROFL

That is also a very good point...lol

StartingOver
06-23-2010, 12:03 AM
They can but according to my ped the recovery is alot more painful for them when they are older, even with meds. Babies don't retain the memory of the pain like an older child or adult. Given the likelihood of boys needing a circumcision when they are older isn't very often so we figured it wasn't much of a risk.

Let me start by saying that none of my sons were circumcised at birth. I just think natural is best. My now 18 year old had a really hard time, the foreskin would tighten up so tight that it actually prevented him from going. When he was 2, he was on his 5th urinary infection. Talking to the Pediatric Uroligist, he informed the that we could pull it back which would be very painful, and hope it didn't tighten again. Or we could circumcise him. I went with the one time treatment. I was young, I am sure now I would have refused and looked for other options. I regret the decision.

Let me tell you this was not pleasant for my son at 2 years old. That poor child sat in his little recliner just crying, knowing he had to go. He couldn't even stand at all for 5 days, and when he could his little legs would just shake. Under the bandage was OMG scary. Needless to say, I am glad it is over. But my next son was not circumcised. My grandson is not. I am glad I will never have to make a decision like that again. I could not imagine an adult having it done !!!

schwartzkari
06-23-2010, 12:13 AM
I wouldn't pierce my little girl's ears when she was a baby. I don't know if I could have a boy circumcised for the same reason. It just seems like a lot pain to put a baby through. Besides can't they get it done when their older with anesthesia and pain killers?

My family practices reformed Judaism so my son had a bris when he was 8 days old. It was performed by a mohel (certified to perform circumcisions both medically and religiously.) The mohel is also our current pediatrician. He explained to me that if a boy is going to be circumcised, it should be on the 8th day after their birth. This gives plenty of time to make sure the baby isn't sick. Unfortunately, many hospitals perform the surgery on day 1 or 2 which can increase the chance for infections and deformities. My son was given a small shot of numbing medicine, a washcloth of kosher grape wine to chew on and taa daa, he did fine. LOL. He didn't feel anything and the healing process was about one week long. Obviously circumcision is a controversial topic, just like homeschooling and the decision belongs to the parents.

Riceball_Mommy
06-23-2010, 10:59 AM
My family practices reformed Judaism so my son had a bris when he was 8 days old. It was performed by a mohel (certified to perform circumcisions both medically and religiously.) The mohel is also our current pediatrician. He explained to me that if a boy is going to be circumcised, it should be on the 8th day after their birth. This gives plenty of time to make sure the baby isn't sick. Unfortunately, many hospitals perform the surgery on day 1 or 2 which can increase the chance for infections and deformities. My son was given a small shot of numbing medicine, a washcloth of kosher grape wine to chew on and taa daa, he did fine. LOL. He didn't feel anything and the healing process was about one week long. Obviously circumcision is a controversial topic, just like homeschooling and the decision belongs to the parents.

I'm not Jewish but I think if I would have a boy and opt for circumcision I'd want to use a similar method to what you did. I'm especially happy to hear about the numbing medicine that was used, that makes me feel a bit better about it.

schwartzkari
06-23-2010, 11:10 AM
I'm not Jewish but I think if I would have a boy and opt for circumcision I'd want to use a similar method to what you did. I'm especially happy to hear about the numbing medicine that was used, that makes me feel a bit better about it.

I believe there are mohels who will perform the surgery regardless of religion.

jessicalb
06-23-2010, 09:06 PM
I am struggling with reading a religious justification for an unnecessary cosmetic surgical procedure on infant genitalia in a secular homeschool forum. No one else has said anything, so maybe I am the only one. I don't know. It just really bothers me. I was hoping this might be a place where I wouldn't read about that. The whole rest of the web is full of it.

StartingOver
06-23-2010, 09:20 PM
I am struggling with reading a religious justification for an unnecessary cosmetic surgical procedure on infant genitalia in a secular homeschool forum. No one else has said anything, so maybe I am the only one. I don't know. It just really bothers me. I was hoping this might be a place where I wouldn't read about that. The whole rest of the web is full of it.

Well I have a good friend who is Jewish, and she fits into our secular group. Because she is ostracised by many religious people for her beliefs.

I take no offense with schwartzkari's statement. I don't believe she made a reference to her religion to convert anyone, but to explain the mohel and the process of a bris as another view.

wild_destiny
06-23-2010, 09:39 PM
Now I feel like a goofball. Jessica, I read your comment about the religious justification...and the web being full of it, and I thought, "The web is full of people debating the merits of being circumcised? Where have I been today?!" Duh. Then I realized what you meant. Can I claim to have brain drain from all the heat? :)

I definitely feel like the oddball in this conversation, as I did have both my sons circumcised. The second son did not even get the benefit of having any anesthesia, as the doctor was a big believer in everything natural, yet she had no compulsion about cutting him. Go figure that. She was also a doctor who was very opposed to a woman in labor being given any type of pain medication, unless absolutely needed. And yet, she routinely would schedule women to make an appointment to have their babies induced, not for any medical reason, but so that you could pick your babies birthday. I never did understand that. What would be more natural than a baby coming when it is ready. She finally stopped when she almost lost a mother and baby, because she tried to get a baby to be born when it was not ready.

Anyway, these are very personal choices and are bound to be different for you and for me. One of the great things about this group is that we all have the ability to believe what we want without anyone forcing his/her opinion on the rest of us. I am grateful for the respectful --and oh so funny--people on this site. You all rock!! :)

Riceball_Mommy
06-23-2010, 09:55 PM
I was only asking more about it, because my husband is very for circumcision, for non-religious purposes. I just either wanted to further back up an argument on why not to or at least find a middle ground where the procedure can be done with as little pain to the child as possible. Of course I don't know why I'm so curious anyway since I'm asking about a baby I may never have. I suppose though it's good to know for that "maybe" situation.

hjdong
06-23-2010, 09:55 PM
There have been conversations mentioning religion on this board before. Circumcision, like religion, is going to be a touchy (hee - hee) topic. I hope that doesn't mean we can't talk about it civilly.

jessicalb
06-23-2010, 10:05 PM
I guess I didn't communicate my objection well. Of course we'll discuss parenting topics. On a secular board, I am surprised that justifications based on religious beliefs for anything are welcome.

StartingOver
06-23-2010, 10:43 PM
I am confused by this personally. I didn't see it as a justification based on religious belief. I simply saw it as stating what she did, and why. Then further explaining a bris. And one mothers experience of it.

I dont' think that a secular group is only for non religious people. I think secular groups are made up of people of belief and non beliefs. They normally are much more tolerant of others, since most feel persecuted. I think we can share out experiences without being fearful of upsetting others, without having to watch every word. As long as no one tries to convert, or to belittle someone elses beliefs.

I personally don't care what anyone's beliefs are or if they state them. As long as they don't try to shove them down my throat.

Snoopy
06-23-2010, 11:21 PM
I am confused by this personally. I didn't see it as a justification based on religious belief. I simply saw it as stating what she did, and why. Then further explaining a bris. And one mothers experience of it. I dont' think that a secular group is only for non religious people. I think secular groups are made up of people of belief and non beliefs. They normally are much more tolerant of others, since most feel persecuted. I think we can share out experiences without being fearful of upsetting others, without having to watch every word. As long as no one tries to convert, or to belittle someone elses beliefs.
I personally don't care what anyone's beliefs are or if they state them. As long as they don't try to shove them down my throat.

Jana, I was composing my answer at the same time as you were composing yours and they're pretty much the same! This is what I was going to say:
Jessica, I get what you're saying and as Holly said it's touchy. Here is the way I see it and that is only my opinion: while we are all here because we do not homeschool for religious reasons, some of our members are religious in other aspects of their lives and as such, some of their beliefs/practices/customs will sometimes appear in their messages if we're discussing something that resonates for them and that they do differently because of their religion and they want to chime in. Does this make sense? I took schwartzkari's explanation as a cultural one as to why her kid is circumcised. I still feel the way I feel about it, but I appreciated the educational value of her post. There have been threads before we were asked about our interactions with people of faith or where someone talked about their kids going to Catholic school, for example, so as it was noted, there have been threads containing religious explanations before. I don't think that we can totally eliminate all religious references in our posts unless we want to say that we will only discuss secular [B]curriculum[/B ] and that is IT. But I don't think that that is the community that Topsy was trying to build, although I might be wrong. I do know that she has told me that she does not like censorship when I asked her to intervene on a thread before because the signs of impending drama were starting to give me hives, lol. (I don't do well with stress)

I do censor all types of religious or political talk on my own group and if we were to talk about such subjects as circumcision, vax/no vax, etc. we would do it privately via email or in person. No one likes censorship, of course, but I had to do it in my own group to avoid any drama because I meet with those people IRL and I do care about preserving the friendships.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents ;)

StartingOver
06-23-2010, 11:50 PM
Jana, I was composing my answer at the same time as you were composing yours and they're pretty much the same!

Oh but you were oh so much more eloquent LOL. Glad I wasn't the only one, whew. I was afraid of getting a spanking.

schwartzkari
06-24-2010, 12:44 AM
I normally do not discuss religion but since I have experience with a different side of circumcision, I thought I would share my viewpoint on it, using my culture.

I'm surprised that my original rant about my fatherinlaw took so many turns. I apologize if I offended anyone. My intentions were not to try and convert anyone to Judaism (that is frowned upon actually.)

ColourfulThreads
06-24-2010, 01:53 AM
" Instead of saying thank you, my fatherinlaw corrected my daughter's handwriting! She's FIVE. It really ticked me off. So I said "we haven't quite worked on the concept of commas just yet, but we are getting there."

I read the thread and I know it took some twists and turns, but one thing stuck out for me that I didn't really see addressed here (if I missed it, I apologize.)

I think your FIL has a right to voice his concerns about homeschool (obviously he is concerned about his grandkids.) I do not think he had a right to be unkind to his granddaughter.

My own FIL is a very forceful, very opinionated man. He has continually voiced concerns, which over the years I have learned to handle very efficiently.

When, however, he pointed out errors in my children's cards and such, I simply reminded him that to do so was unkind to his grand children who had worked very hard all on their own to make him a gift. The polite response should have been a simple thank-you. If he wanted to see school work, I could arrange that, but to critique a handmade gift from a six year old was mean.

He never said another thing again in front of my children. Seriously.

As far as his concerns about homeschool, he has merely made me a better advocate for the movement. As my oldest enters high school, she is doing more to make a convert out of him than anything I could have said all those years ago.

HTH,
Jennifer

MamaB2C
06-24-2010, 02:11 AM
There are cultural Jews as well as those who are religious. The poster discussed the ritual in a cultural, not religious way.

My boss is as secular as can be belief-wise, but he celebrates Jewish holidays, and follows many traditions, because that's his culture and family.

I myself celebrate Christmas and Easter and love Gospel music, yet I am an atheist.

paganmomblog
06-24-2010, 08:23 AM
I guess I didn't communicate my objection well. Of course we'll discuss parenting topics. On a secular board, I am surprised that justifications based on religious beliefs for anything are welcome.

The justification was for her only. She stated clearly that it was a personal choice thus not forcing the justification on others.

Religious beleifs are going to sprout up on occasion. I think it's more of a matter on HOW it's handled. It would be one thing to have an evangelist join the forum and informing us all we are going to burn in hell for not teaching certain things to our children. It's quite another if someone says "this is why I do this". And how about discussing curricula? There are tons of religious curricula and they do get discussed here as some people have used those items and have had experience with them.

We have a wide variety of religions represented on this board and so far it has been wonderful.

Topsy
06-24-2010, 11:12 AM
Piping in on this because this has been beautiful discussion to follow. I think it is so wonderful how we have become such a "family" here on SHS, and can support someone when they go through a difficulty with their family or friends IRL. Obviously, discussion online isn't so different from discussion in person. It takes us off on rabbit trails that are really fun to follow! But also, in any discussion where several people are participating, people may disagree on some issues. They also may misunderstand the intent or the background behind someone's responses (this can happen IRL, also!). If anyone takes offense at something someone says on these boards, they are perfectly within their rights to express their feelings. Just as others are perfectly within their rights to defend the statements of themselves or others, or provide more information if something is misunderstood.

Religious topics (even vaguely religious ones) are a trigger-point for many folks here at SHS.com. However, it would be nigh to impossible to keep religion completely off the discussions here because many of us who were raised with religion as a significant part of our upbringing and culture are... (whether we like it or not)...a composition of our past experiences. To participate fully on the forum, and to express our genuine selves, and relay our genuine experiences means that - - sometimes - - mentions of something of a religious nature are going to crop up. I don't see this as an issue in the least unless someone was trying to "proselytize" someone else here, or flame someone else because of a religious subtext. So far, we have avoided those problems completely here on the boards. And I don't forsee that being a problem in the future. :)

Carry on!!! :)

Shoe
06-24-2010, 11:23 AM
Went out to dinner last night with my inlaws for Father's Day. My daughter bought a special card for him and she worked pretty hard to sign her name and her little brothers name inside the card. Instead of saying thank you, my fatherinlaw corrected my daughter's handwriting! She's FIVE. It really ticked me off. So I said "we haven't quite worked on the concept of commas just yet, but we are getting there." (she didn't put a comma between her name and her brother's name.) and my fatherinlaw says "I've been meaning to ask you, how do you keep track of school records for the state?" When I explained to him that I didn't have to (Yay Texas! LOL.) BUT that I do anyway, he got all weird on me and started talking about how it could be considered lazy and that I should follow a public school curriculum at home.

Um. yea. If I wanted to follow a public school curriculum I would just send my kiddos to a public school. What a concept. *rolls eyes.* Also, I took serious offense to the use of the word "lazy." I have our lessons planned out for the next year, already working on the year after that and I'm finishing my teaching degree in the process. Yes. I am so lazy.

Anyways, the reason all this pissed me off so much, is because my fatherinlaw has been the one family member who HAS NOT said anything negative about homeschooling. We announced we were going to homeschool 3 years ago. My motherinlaw freaked out but has since come around and loves the idea. My side of the family thinks I'm some sort of saint for taking on my children's education. My fatherinlaw really never said one word about the whole idea. Our homeschool will "count" starting in August and I feel like he's freaking out because we are actually going thru with it! I told my husband I had an upset stomach last night so we left dinner early. My husband knew exactly what was wrong with me and promptly took me home. Love that man, LOL.

Okay, I feel a little better now. I was hoping that after 3 years, I wouldn't hear anything negative from my family again but I suppose that was just wishful thinking. *sigh*

I feel badly for your daughter-that was simply rude to her. He was receiving a gift, not correcting a grammar lesson!

As for the rest, I'm glad to hear you have a supportive husband who understands your feelings and picks up on nuances.

Your decision to homeschool is, ultimately, YOUR decision, not theirs, and I suspect that the "proof is in the pudding" so to speak, and any family detractors will be pleasantly surprised when your daughter outperforms the public schools and learns well.

Vent all you want-you're among friends.

Shoe
06-24-2010, 11:28 AM
" Instead of saying thank you, my fatherinlaw corrected my daughter's handwriting! She's FIVE. It really ticked me off. So I said "we haven't quite worked on the concept of commas just yet, but we are getting there."

I read the thread and I know it took some twists and turns, but one thing stuck out for me that I didn't really see addressed here (if I missed it, I apologize.)

I think your FIL has a right to voice his concerns about homeschool (obviously he is concerned about his grandkids.) I do not think he had a right to be unkind to his granddaughter...

When, however, he pointed out errors in my children's cards and such, I simply reminded him that to do so was unkind to his grand children who had worked very hard all on their own to make him a gift. The polite response should have been a simple thank-you. If he wanted to see school work, I could arrange that, but to critique a handmade gift from a six year old was mean. I was a bit behind on reading this thread when I made my last post, but I completely agree with you on this! I'd be very angry if my parents or in laws pulled something like that on my kids! In fact, that aspect of the original post has made me quite angry, and I'm not even related.