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lakshmi
04-01-2012, 02:53 PM
Does anyone have kids or experience with this diagnosis and in particular how it relates to schooling. Or life in general.

Thanks.

farrarwilliams
04-01-2012, 02:59 PM
When I was teaching, we had a couple of kids receive this diagnosis and at one point had an expert come in and talk to us as a staff. They were extremely charming, intelligent kids who were also extremely stubborn and manipulative. In both cases, the school ended up expelling them.

Are you asking in regard to your own kids, Lakshmi?

lakshmi
04-01-2012, 03:25 PM
No, possibly for a friend but I can only find the dry clinical stuff online. And it just doesn't help with the "what does this look like" scenario. As in, is this behavior something I need to be evaluated..

Yesterday we were hanging out and our kids created a club. 'The Perfect Princess Trio" And my kids each drew a princess on the banner, so I said, you need to draw a princess too. (duh, trio... ) She said, No, she wasn't going to do it. Stomped off with the banner, Then she came back and said, " I drew AN EVIL WITCH"

A lot of you know me on here for being a sort of say what I am thinking (adhd? ODD? lol.) kind of person and it really took a lot of restraint for me not to say somethng to this kid.

BUT, I mentioned to my friend that she might want to take a look at ODD. She's had a history of having trouble telling her daughter what to do. And I had always thought it was just simple kid not minding blah blah blah. My kids won't clean their room type of thing. But after that princess/witch thing I was sort of taken aback.

The girl was adopted from Kazakstan when she was 8 months old I think. So I also suggested taking a look at Reactive ATtachment Disorder. Not that I've any experience with either of these things just a fascination with all things pysch.

farrarwilliams
04-01-2012, 03:31 PM
Ugh. RAD is something I've read about a tiny bit and it seems like a serious trial for all involved - kids and parents.

Some kids are just willful. I don't feel like that incident in and of itself is that shocking (I actually chuckled. Evil witch. Hehe). But the behavior of trying to shock YOU is, from my understanding, a potential ODD behavior. The thing that I remember striking me the most was that these were kids who had very tough exteriors, but underneath there was just so much pain and insecurity. :(

Someone on this board has a child with an ODD diagnosis, iirc. Maybe whoever it is will chime in. I just can't recall who...

mom2samtheman
04-01-2012, 04:34 PM
My son has an ODD diagnosis and we are actually trying to figure out if my fiancee's son also has it. In all fairness, my son has many diagnoses and no one is truely sure about any of them other than the epilepsy and mild autism. I have spoken with many, many people with experience in ODD and similar disorders.

Life with my child was 100% stressful 100% of the time. Like 24/7 crisis management up till like 2 years ago. Like I felt like I couldn't guarantee his safety or mine. I HIGHLY recommend the book The explosive child by Ross Greene, it is a wonderful resource and can help direct parents and caregivers. He (Dr. Greene) runs something called the center for collaborative problem solving I think it is in boston (at least it was like 6 years ago. I took my son there and saw dr. ablon while we were there. Also google schenectady neurology and look on the website for a screening tool for ADD/ADHD and others, there is one there that also screens for ODD. I am on my way out, but will post the link later. There are a lot of reasons for defiant behavior, ODD is pretty unusual. A brilliant psychiatrist once said that all kids dig their heels in every once in a while about something. A kid with ture ODD digs their heels in much deeper and much more frequently. Like they will maybe be hospitalized regularly. Let me know if there are specific questions!

Amanadoo
04-01-2012, 04:41 PM
I've got some advice: Beat them.

Amanadoo
04-01-2012, 04:42 PM
wokka wokka what now?!

gidamom
04-01-2012, 08:37 PM
My last year working in the classroom I had a girl who ended up being diagnosed with ODD. She was 10. This description reminds me of our days with her. I even had a colleague who was pregnant and asked not to teach her because she was scared. The year before the girl had kicked her.

I can't pretend to understand the condition fully and my experience is limited to this one girl in a regular classroom setting.
This girl in particular had a daily issue with almost everything she was asked to do, from basic classroom management stuff to classwork and assignments. The issue was not in her difficulty with these, but in her reaction when she did not want to follow along. For the record, she was a BRILLIANT girl. She ended up being suspended, and the school was considering expelling her.

My son has an ODD diagnosis and we are actually trying to figure out if my fiancee's son also has it. In all fairness, my son has many diagnoses and no one is truely sure about any of them other than the epilepsy and mild autism. I have spoken with many, many people with experience in ODD and similar disorders.

Life with my child was 100% stressful 100% of the time. Like 24/7 crisis management up till like 2 years ago. Like I felt like I couldn't guarantee his safety or mine. I HIGHLY recommend the book The explosive child by Ross Greene, it is a wonderful resource and can help direct parents and caregivers. He (Dr. Greene) runs something called the center for collaborative problem solving I think it is in boston (at least it was like 6 years ago. I took my son there and saw dr. ablon while we were there. Also google schenectady neurology and look on the website for a screening tool for ADD/ADHD and others, there is one there that also screens for ODD. I am on my way out, but will post the link later. There are a lot of reasons for defiant behavior, ODD is pretty unusual. A brilliant psychiatrist once said that all kids dig their heels in every once in a while about something. A kid with ture ODD digs their heels in much deeper and much more frequently. Like they will maybe be hospitalized regularly. Let me know if there are specific questions!

MarkInMD
04-01-2012, 08:44 PM
I would not be surprised at all if Tornado has ODD. Our pediatrician has suggested having him evaluated by a specialist, but we have to wait a few months until we get back on health insurance to make that cost-effective. The thing that makes (at least) me wonder what it is is that he's not that way with anyone but us. In a situation where someone else is the teacher, including when he was in PS pre-K and Head Start, he was the model student -- even selected as "Most Easygoing" by his Head Start teacher. With us, holy hell! The smallest things will set him off, he'll throw fits over minor mistakes or simple requests, and his default answer is "No!" no matter what it is. But since we face the brunt of this, I don't know if that constitutes ODD or not. I can tell you that we've tried millions of positive, negative, and neutral strategies, and none of them sticks for more than a few days. It's like having a mutating virus that you constantly have to update the vaccine for. We tried a modified diet for a while that didn't seem to make much difference. So if anyone can figure it out, I'm all ears!

dbmamaz
04-01-2012, 09:07 PM
I used to say I thought Raven could have gotten an ODD dx before I changed his diet. He would literally scream NO!!! any time I asked him if he wanted to do something. Like if I asked him if he wanted to eat, even 'what do you want for lunch', 'do you want x or y for lunch', it didnt matter. He'd scream no over and over. If i put something on the table that I thought he might like, and carried him, kicking and screaming to the table, as soon as he saw the food, he would sit down and eat. but SAYING ANYTHING made him scream 'no'. (my husband tends to have a similar reaction - i have learned not to bring up ANYTHING for discussion unless its absolutely necessary. discussing something ahead of time always makes him get argumentative)

Raven still has a tendency to scream 'no' if I suggest something he doesnt want to do, interrupt him when he's thinking, or dont give him enough warning before he has to do something. But he is able to calm down faster and cope better.

I once saw a description saying that a typical kid, when you tell them to turn off the tv and come have dinner, they will do so, maybe the second or third time you call, but still, they'll come. A stubborn kid might say no, and then you have to remind them they will get (some punishment) if they dont, and THEN they will come (this is more where Raven runs these days). An ODD kid will freak out and scream and refuse to come and slam doors, just totally out-of-scale response.

I really dont think refusing to participate in a group project is a sign of ODD. It could be that she's an introvert with a lot of anger issues, who knows. I think kids should be allowed to not participate. "Not minding" kinda rubs me the wrong way. I'm not raising my kids to mindlessly obey everything someone tells them to do, i want them to be independent (but polite) actors.

ps - amanadoo, that was just a really tasteless joke, right?

MrsLOLcat
04-01-2012, 09:20 PM
It could be ODD... but it could just be a bad day, or it could be part of something sensory, or RAD, or who knows. My gut says no to RAD, though, because from what I've read/seen, RAD kids usually aren't openly defiant. They are more underhanded... MUCH more. One of my friends' daughters has a RAD diagnosis, and I am constantly in awe of how she manages to parent under the circumstances she has been given. Anyway, her daughter does things that just make me tremble. Like my friend tells her to clean her room, and she DOES (albeit shoving most of the stuff under the bed), but she also takes lipstick and draws all over my friend's bedspread. Or they'll visit someone's home and on the way back the girl will pull money or toys or jewelry... or medicine... out of her clothing from where she stole it. Or the teacher will ask the daughter to take a note to the principal and she goes and hides behind a dumpster on the way and makes the entire school look for her for two hours. Etc., etc., etc. But she very, very rarely is openly defiant.

skrink
04-01-2012, 09:48 PM
My dd has a "potential" ODD diagnosis. She is on the spectrum and can be very aggressive and physical. She didn't meet the full criteria but got a diagnosis for the broader Disruptive Behavior Disorder. She also has a cousin with ODD. I'm glad she didn't qualify but I can see that it was a close thing. Basically, kids with ODD are smart, manipulative, and hell-bent on disagreeing with everything. They tend to be expert liars, and have lots of tantrums. Resentful, spiteful, revenge-seeking... It's a load of laughs. The biggest worry is that it can progress to conduct disorder, which is the ramped up version; lots of violence, stealing, lying, drug/alcohol issues, jail. Either way, anger management is key. We are still working on it. :(

I don't know that what you saw would qualify - some kids are just strong willed and harder to live with, without it being anything truly pathological. Maybe it was an off day for her, maybe she was pissed about something unrelated and this is how it made its way to the surface. I'd take it easy with offering up diagnoses to the mom, even if she asks (did she?). That can be very touchy territory.

mom2samtheman
04-01-2012, 10:21 PM
wokka wokka what now?!

Ummm, really?

1. grow up
2. learn to be slightly more respectful

If you aren't dealing with these issues in your own home, you ought to be thanking your lucky stars. And I hope you are teaching your children to more kind and respectful than you are.

mom2samtheman
04-01-2012, 10:24 PM
I have been told my multiple sources that ODD doesn't necessarily carry over into every environment. For example it can show up only at school or only at home. My son was always much better behaved at school than he was anywhere else.

In the environment where the ODD shows up, the intense digging the heels in is over nearly everything. It is like a knee jerk reaction. Like if a kid with out ODD has a tantrum, on a scale of 0-10 its like a 3-4 whereas with a child with ODD it is like at least an 8 every time.

Amanadoo
04-01-2012, 10:33 PM
ps - amanadoo, that was just a really tasteless joke, right?


Er well yes, sort of. And only because Lak was the OP. And I know she knows the value of beatin those kids. But then I was thinking that maybe Lakshmi would post her question AND NEVER COME BACK and I'd be left looking like a right ass. And other people would have no idea whatsoever what I am talking about, possibly even people actually dealing with ODD, which of course isn't a joke in any way, shape or form. Sincere apologies from me, I am sorry.

lakshmi
04-02-2012, 12:50 AM
Ummm, really?

1. grow up
2. learn to be slightly more respectful

If you aren't dealing with these issues in your own home, you ought to be thanking your lucky stars. And I hope you are teaching your children to more kind and respectful than you are.

Thanks for your original comments. but....
LEAVE ADOO ALONE... SHE IS FUNNY AS HELL. She is also using my own joke against/with me. and I loved it. And I was quite impressed Adoo, really. You're a balsy beatch. And I like that about you!

Besides we don't have enough jokes around here anymore. Thanks ADoo, I cracked up.

Oh and hell yeah I offered a diagnosis to this mom. She's been talking about how defiant and moody her kid is for a year. And I like the mom and the dad it is the kid that I don't know about. My kids hang with her but she is older. (4 years older than my youngest) Sometimes they have issues with her. Like she always picks the games and won't play if she didn't pick it. I thought it was just an older kid/younger kid thing. No big deal.. A great way for my kids to experience negotiating. But there was something about this interaction that got me thinking. I wasn't being snotty just offering a suggestion to her.


She is hard to be around sometimes according to her mom. And I feel bad for her mom. It would be hard to live with. I am a little ODD so I had read about it a bit years ago but then... (you all can tell that I bet). So I threw it out there. And the clinical stuff is so dry that it makes it hard to get a handle on it.

I am not sure her tantrums are that bad. (level 8) I 've never seen them. But that comes back to the question about whether or not it shows up with other people. And I am wondering if I have been around long enough to now start to warrant the status of showing me what's up. But ... still seems more passive aggressive rather than outright tantrum. Like I said, I don't really know how it appears to the family. To me it was what I described.

No idea. All I know is that this mom is my friend and she's had so much trouble and has tried a lot of different parenting. But I am not sure about the tantrum part. What else would cause this? We've talked about gifted. and we've talked about.... just tween age... And we've talked about all sorts of possibilities.


My younger kid throws a tantrum when she doesn't get what she wants... but i strike that up to her being a scorpio. LOL>..

I suppose it comes down to what you can tolerate? If you can't tolerate the behavior any more and what you've tried on your own isnt' working hten you have go in search of what makes sense.

Any suggestions?

skrink
04-02-2012, 08:20 AM
Has her kiddo ever been evaluated for a spectrum disorder? The "my-way-or-the-highway" thing is my daughter to a T. The whole business of standard parenting techniques not doing squat - also my dd. Dunno. Seems like there could be lots of things in play. Has she at all considered some sort of eval? It's a way imperfect, long, and frustrating process, but it can offer up some ideas. The diagnosis wasn't the most important part of the whole thing for us. It was just a tool in finding real help.

lakshmi
04-02-2012, 09:00 AM
By spectrum discorder you mean autism right? I don't think so. I am not sure she's thought of an eval, just blaming herself because nothing was working. But she's been trying dfferent things.

Thanks everyone.

Accidental Homeschooler
04-02-2012, 10:03 AM
I worked with a lot of kids with ODD diangnoses in residential and day treatment. I also worked with teens with conduct disorders who usually came through juvenile probation. I would really encourage your friend to get an evaluation. As others have pointed out before, there are a lot of things that can cause ODDish behavior. Most of the kids I worked with had come from physically abusive homes (though not all, not saying every child who is diagnosed with ODD is abused), it is one of the risk factors. When you have to deal with an unpredictable, violent environment control becomes a huge issue. As your friend's dd was adopted maybe it is part of the picture for her?

What I found to be most important when working with kids who had been diagnosed with ODD as far as getting them to be complaint/follow rules (and we are talking about a very controlled environment here) was to make sure they understood that they were making all their own decisions, that they were in control of their choices. My job was to make sure they understood what the consequences of those choices are. If you choose not to do A. then the consequence will be B. Then follow through with B if needed. And it was important to leave it at that, no lectures, not discussing, just, "Well, you chose this action and this is the consequence." If they thought I had a stake in it, that I was going to be upset/angry somehow, it put it back on me. So, I found that if I was neutral and they really could see that I had no interest in deciding for them, but just waiting for them to decide. I also needed to let it go after the consequence, once the consequence happened I was done. I didn't show anger, disappointment, didn't EVER hold a grudge...that they could see. Once the consequence happened it was over. Of course, these were not my children so that wasn't as hard as it would be for a parent, who has a huge stake. It is also a lot easier when you work with them for eight hours and then go home. We would also make sure to try to have as many positive interactions as possible, but when it came to getting them to do something, or stop doing something, neutral and straightforward about the choices and consequences and then wait for THEM to decide. It was like they could make choices in their own best interest if they did not feel like someone else was controlling, or trying to control it. I don't know it that makes sense or is helpful but it is what I found to be most effective on a day to day basis.

kailuamom67
04-02-2012, 10:11 AM
What I think is a really really important part of an odd DX, is the manipulation, revenge seeking and spitefulness.

My DS will routinely refuse to do what's asked, and then freak out and tantrum if you push it. The tantrum is waaaaaay beyond what's normal. What pointed us in the direction of autism spectrum was that none of these reactions had anything to do with us, only to do with him. So he couldn't turn a tantrum on or off, an odd kid mostly can. Our son doesn't lie, or hide his issues, an odd kid will. Our son may think revenge in a moment (so if he gets hit, he will freak and think...I will kill you!", but not later and he won't plan it out and then do it.

Crabby Lioness
04-02-2012, 10:38 AM
My first thought when seeing that title was, "Are they trying to medicallize contrariness now?"

Shaunessy McKay
04-02-2012, 01:20 PM
Here is the entire section for the criteria for making a diagnosis of oppositional defiant disorder in the DSM-IV:

"A pattern of negativistic, hostile, and defiant behavior lasting at least 6 months, during which four (or more) of the following are present:
1) often loses temper
2) often argues with adults
3) often actively defies or refuses to comply with adult requests or rules
4) often deliberately annoys people
5) often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehaviors
6) is often touchy or easily annoyed by others
7) is often angry and resentful
8) is often spiteful or vindictive"

This seems, to me anyway, to be a list of ways to say a child is angry, and/or possibly going through a difficult time. It seems to focus on what could make the life of the adult difficult, and doesn't deal with why the child is so angry.

Also, a lot of signs and symptoms of metal toxicity are behavioral. Mercury: depression, fearfulness, frequent bouts of anger, hallucinations, inability to accept criticism, inability to concentrate, indecision, irritability, loss of memory, persecution complex... Lead: dullness, poor attention span, headaches, hallucinations, memory loss... Manganese: extreme fatigue, irritability, hallucinations, emotional instability, compulsive acts, involvement in "stupid crimes" and irrational violent behavior...

I would check for metal toxicity, or iron deficiency before I ever considered a behavioral disorder.

Crabby Lioness
04-02-2012, 02:12 PM
Here is the entire section for the criteria for making a diagnosis of oppositional defiant disorder in the DSM-IV:

"A pattern of negativistic, hostile, and defiant behavior lasting at least 6 months, during which four (or more) of the following are present:
1) often loses temper
2) often argues with adults
3) often actively defies or refuses to comply with adult requests or rules
4) often deliberately annoys people
5) often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehaviors
6) is often touchy or easily annoyed by others
7) is often angry and resentful
8) is often spiteful or vindictive"

Ooo, ooo, I know what that is! That's a middle-school/junior high aged child!

jar7709
04-02-2012, 02:15 PM
Going to preface all my comments by saying that yes I'm sure ODD is a real thing and that it is very difficult for all involved. With that said, I think sometimes behaviors that look like ODD can be the result of something else. During that awful kindergarten experience my son had, he was exhibiting a lot of behaviors that made the school administrators and counselor think he had it--anger, stubborness, over-the-top meltdowns that included stuff like throwing chairs. He had a couple one-day suspensions. It turns out that he does not have ODD or other behavioral disorders, but the school was not set up to recognize or accomodate "giftedness", only autism and things like ODD, so that's the box they put him in and the methods they used with him, compounding the problem and his reactions. Your anecdote about not wanting to do what the group does--that sounds like something my kids would do. So it might be an expression of ODD, or could be something else. Or, maybe she's just an introvert who thought the group project was dumb or something and didn't know how to say "no thank you" politely and that she wanted to do something else. Don't take any options off the table yet. :)

Accidental Homeschooler
04-02-2012, 02:30 PM
Going to preface all my comments by saying that yes I'm sure ODD is a real thing and that it is very difficult for all involved. With that said, I think sometimes behaviors that look like ODD can be the result of something else. During that awful kindergarten experience my son had, he was exhibiting a lot of behaviors that made the school administrators and counselor think he had it--anger, stubborness, over-the-top meltdowns that included stuff like throwing chairs. He had a couple one-day suspensions. It turns out that he does not have ODD or other behavioral disorders, but the school was not set up to recognize or accomodate "giftedness", only autism and things like ODD, so that's the box they put him in and the methods they used with him, compounding the problem and his reactions. Your anecdote about not wanting to do what the group does--that sounds like something my kids would do. So it might be an expression of ODD, or could be something else. Or, maybe she's just an introvert who thought the group project was dumb or something and didn't know how to say "no thank you" politely and that she wanted to do something else. Don't take any options off the table yet. :)

This was our experience with ps also. My dd's anxiety being in school caused a lot of oppositional behavior and ODD was what the school latched onto. They responded based on that faulty assumption and it made everything worse.

lakshmi
04-02-2012, 09:22 PM
Thanks everyone.

I think after reading here and online that her stuff may not be ODD but her mom did add that she will get on a "topic" like right now it is goign to bed, and will fight that.

No idea.


...Also, a lot of signs and symptoms of metal toxicity are behavioral. Mercury: depression, fearfulness, frequent bouts of anger, hallucinations, inability to accept criticism, inability to concentrate, indecision, irritability, loss of memory, persecution complex... Lead: dullness, poor attention span, headaches, hallucinations, memory loss... Manganese: extreme fatigue, irritability, hallucinations, emotional instability, compulsive acts, involvement in "stupid crimes" and irrational violent behavior...

I would check for metal toxicity, or iron deficiency before I ever considered a behavioral disorder.

I found this to be incredibly interesting. I hadn't even thought of connecting these behaviors to a toxicity level. I am going to search this out online.


Ooo, ooo, I know what that is! That's a middle-school/junior high aged child!

That is what I am saying... that list sounds like any kid nearly any day. So I can't figure out how bad ODD is. It is like the maerial on it is so lame. So i brought it here.



Going to preface all my comments by saying that yes I'm sure ODD is a real thing and that it is very difficult for all involved. With that said, I think sometimes behaviors that look like ODD can be the result of something else. During that awful kindergarten experience my son had, he was exhibiting a lot of behaviors that made the school administrators and counselor think he had it--anger, stubborness, over-the-top meltdowns that included stuff like throwing chairs. He had a couple one-day suspensions. It turns out that he does not have ODD or other behavioral disorders, but the school was not set up to recognize or accomodate "giftedness", only autism and things like ODD, so that's the box they put him in and the methods they used with him, compounding the problem and his reactions. Your anecdote about not wanting to do what the group does--that sounds like something my kids would do. So it might be an expression of ODD, or could be something else. Or, maybe she's just an introvert who thought the group project was dumb or something and didn't know how to say "no thank you" politely and that she wanted to do something else. Don't take any options off the table yet. :)

I've wondered about gifted... but it seems like it is a part of so many things I am thinking that the Non=plussed behavior of caretaker may make a bigger impact.


Oh, and the project was her idea, and her creation. And she didn't like me suggesting that she draw another princess. Really I was just making conversation with her. I wanted to tlak to her mom and for hte kids to high tail it outta there. ...

lol. I don't get enough grown up human interaction in real life i guess. off to read about metal toxicity.

knitsteel
04-03-2012, 02:04 PM
I HIGHLY recommend the book The explosive child by Ross Greene, it is a wonderful resource and can help direct parents and caregivers. He (Dr. Greene) runs something called the center for collaborative problem solving I think it is in boston (at least it was like 6 years ago.

That's a great book for anyone who is having problems arguing with their child too much, whether it's the child or the adult doing the arguing. Although the topic and strategies are for serious behavior disorders, the strategies work for less serious and/or temporary difficulties.

It helped me a lot when my now 9 yr old was much younger and much more defiant. It also helped me with strategies for dealing with difficult adults.

lakshmi
04-04-2012, 12:47 AM
I saw that she had it today. It looked good. (the explosive child) and I think I will read it.

kailuamom67
04-04-2012, 10:46 AM
The explosive child saved us! It's probably why we're homeschooling now.

smc
04-05-2012, 02:01 PM
In my opinion, ODD doesn't say a lot as a stand alone diagnosis. There generally is a reason for the defiance, as in a primary diagnosis of something else (such as an autism spectrum disorder, mood disorder, RAD, etc).

It sounds like the mom is concerned and could use some support in finding resources for her daughter. We deal with a lot of symptoms from my son's various diagnoses and defiance absolutely is the most time consuming and exhausting one for the rest of us.

lakshmi
04-05-2012, 10:22 PM
thinking about it some more.. sometimes teh parents have to change too.. and that is hard to figure out what OUR part in the defiance is. I know that when I behave in a different manner things can change dramatically at times.

Amanadoo
04-05-2012, 11:58 PM
thinking about it some more.. sometimes teh parents have to change too.. and that is hard to figure out what OUR part in the defiance is. I know that when I behave in a different manner things can change dramatically at times.

I hate this. How much control over the whole family situation I have. [still not actually talking about odd, just regular, generic life.] "If momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy" is stupid but TRUE!

skrink
04-06-2012, 08:58 AM
I hate this. How much control over the whole family situation I have. [still not actually talking about odd, just regular, generic life.] "If momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy" is stupid but TRUE!

Oh, wow, yes!! Momma doesn't get to have off days of the whole household goes to sh1t. Very annoying.

Lou
04-06-2012, 09:10 AM
I've got some advice: Beat them.

ha ha, Amandoo....thread hopping at it's best! Lakshmi is a pot stirrer with her "beat them"

I'm going to have to catch up on this thread and read the other three pages. It's a very interesting topic! I know a child that fits the "EXPLOSIVE CHILD" book description. I actually ALMOST suggested the book to his mother, but I don't know them well enough to do that. MAYBE one day?

Lou
04-06-2012, 09:26 AM
Amandoo & Lakshmi - I got the "beat them" and laughed my arse off! :D

As for ANY Dx, the check lists always sound like most all kids, but it's the degree that those behaviors happen that make all the difference. A child can be neat and line up some toys, it doesn't put them on the spectrum. A child can disagree with their parent and hit them or have a brilliant tantrum, but it doesn't put them on the pathological path of crime.

HOWEVER, if those things are happening ALL THE TIME and disrupting their lives, the family's life, etc it's a problem and needs to be addressed.

The evil wicked witch princess is brilliantly funny, but some kids have an underlying evil vibe that is creepy and that's NOT FUNNY. I think you have to be there often, see it, live with it and cope with it to understand it and have an ounce of compassion otherwise you'd just 'beat them' before they 'beat you'! (said seriously with a slight touch of humor!)

I always find it odd that a doctor can give a Dx in a 2 hour evaluation, when in a 24 hour day you might have a good 2 hours but a really life altering crappy 22 hours.

I also think Explosive Child, Spectrumish books, ADHD books, Spirted Child books all are really good information for ANY CHILD. Just because they are directed at a specific difference, the parenting advice given still works for non-pathological children as well in the rare occasion of an outburst or off day. So those books are fabulous for all parents to read. The village might be more cooperative, compassionate, and productive if they all read up on some of these situations and became less judgemental (we need to leave the "JUDGING" up to GOD) (another tad bit of secular humor) hee, hee... :)

Lou
04-06-2012, 09:31 AM
PS Lakshmi - after thinking about the Evil Witch thing, My first reaction is to giggle (unless she had a creepy vibe) but giving it some thought, maybe that is how she projects herself and is begging for some understanding and love? Maybe deep down she wants to be a princess but feels because she's different and is 'the bad child' always, that she is an Evil Witch? Either way it's all so sad! We all have things we deal with and have to work on. :/
Sucks we can't all be super stars and have super star children 24/7.

Dutchbabiesx2
04-06-2012, 12:33 PM
SOOOOOO . . .in January we started a very strict diet with our son. We did it for anxiety, but he'd have these temper flares- I liken then to seizures- he had no control over himself, no regulation, you could not talk him off a ledge. He is 9 and so far had not destroyed anything! We took him out of school because of anxiety and they would flare his temper (he was called all those things that have been mentioned- just had not physically harmed anyone or anything yet).
Long story short, but a dose of Ibuprofen when he was moody seem to bring him back to better regulation (not totally sane, but more manageable by himself and myself). A friend who is a neurobiologist suggest I speak to another mom I know (http://stroyan.net/lisasblog/category/nutrition/excitotoxins/) about the Ibuprofen success. He would get a dose before a sitter or before I went out for the night, he had a lot of separation anxiety too, he could handle the time better.

Sure enough we went on a very limited diet for him (fortunately he was ready and able to do this). We took out ALL food additives (http://truthinlabeling.org/hiddensources.html), for us we also eliminated wheat and dairy for a couple of weeks, but it is not really needed, we just wanted to detox him. We've since added back the wheat and dairy (not enriched wheat products, we eat sprouted breads now) and he has been fine with those.

in 10 days- only 10 days my child started falling asleep in 15-20 minutes at night, it used to take him 2 hours or more!
in 3 weeks he had complete all day emotional regulation. At 9 he had developed some flight habits when challenged, so we have been working on that. after 3 weeks would stomp off as if he was about to have a temper flare, then return, he was confused that he was present/lucid, able to deal with the situation. we were so impressed! It was almost like he could not even make himself get mad.

It is now over 3 months, he sleeps better, he is present all the time.
He smiles- most of the day!
His color in his face is better, no more dark circles
He can complete tasks and keep focus (he told me that he does not have so many thoughts all the time anymore)
his Asthma has improved (a bonus!)
he tells jokes, gets sarcasm and even dishes it out.
gets along with his brother betters
pushes through when things are difficult- writing, and spelling- improved spatial memory . .but again old habits of giving up early are being worked out

Over all he is so much more of a joy to parent and be around. He is still quirky and travels by cartwheels, but day to day- we are not 'expecting' the worst at all given situations. He enjoys being around other kids without getting emotionally over tired.

3 times he has eaten something not god for him. The firs time he was sullen and crabby, the second he was hiding under park benches (he later admitted to eating something on the 'no' list) and just last night he was feeling moody and clingy and some anxiety- but he knows now and I can give him Ibuprofen and some Taurine and he is better today.

We talk so much about sugar, but it is all the other additives that can really screw some kids/people up. I truly believe after seeing the results ourselves, this is a non invasive way to 'try' a therapy- it is cheap and easy. You eat whole foods which is good for the whole family, and if it helps it is so eye opening! I highly suggest any one who has a child with some issues try a strict no additives diet for 4 weeks, even if you get some improvement- your child can be more precisely diagnosed.

While it is not a magic pill, it is the biggest step to naturally help your child come-go a long way to living their potential. I wrote an entire webpage on sensory issues- now I think most of it is BS- even my own writing. I know people way they eat whole food already, but if you look at the list (http://truthinlabeling.org/hiddensources.html) you may find that you are in fact adding these things to your child's diet without knowing (and that is what the food industry wants!).
and as I write this my child is doing round-offs behind me looking for some attention!!!!!

lakshmi
04-06-2012, 01:40 PM
you know what !!!

I JUST made a connection.. this may be a problem that my husband has... He is very sensitive to M. Myabe I will run it past him. hmm...

Lou
04-06-2012, 02:04 PM
What is M?

dbmamaz
04-06-2012, 03:55 PM
Probably MSG?

lakshmi
04-07-2012, 12:50 PM
lol.. I am cracking up. ys I think I meant MSG.. but it could be something else ... make it up Lou!! lol.. it might make the post more interesting.

Lou
04-09-2012, 12:19 AM
M = meth, make-up, murder, masterbating, math, mothers, mountains, hmmmm can't think of too many M words that would make it more interesting. ;)

Rainefox
04-11-2012, 06:43 PM
I had one with ODD. It took them YEARS before they would diagnose her with it and she was in her early teens then and had already had felony charges brought against her. Now she will be twenty six this month and has 'graduated' to a sociopath diagnosis. In some ways she is better now with some maturity, but she was truly a nightmare while she was living at home. She still would be, in a lot of ways, if we didn't establish good boundaries and enforce them.

I guess I'm no help :)

Alanae
04-18-2012, 08:08 AM
My youngest son was a 33week old preemie and has been diagnosed with severe ADHD and ODD. He is currently in the public school system in K and although this year isn't going too badly I have to give the credit for that strictly to the teacher. He routinely refuses to do classwork. I get home half done worksheets or worksheets that haven't been done at all. When asked to do a writing assignment and draw a picture to go along with it, he might write one or two sentences before going off and drawing pictures of rockets and monsters, even though his writing doesn't in any way support his pictures. For the most part if you want him to comply in any way you have to make it seem like the idea to do "whatever it is you want him to do" is HIS idea and not yours and sometimes go to the extreme of saying things like "You know I'm glad you are saying no to me because I didn't want you to do so-and-so." Most days are a battle of wills with him stomping off, arms folded, huffing and mumbling like some shrunken up teen, heading to his room, slamming his door, and climbing under his covers for comfort (ADHD trait..he does better wrapped up like a burrito regardless of the temperature outside).

He sees a counselor that comes to our home once a week. It was meant to be "short term" but two years later I am always happy to see her at my door! The cross between ADHD and ODD has brought us on an interesting path. He is highly medicated and was started on meds at the age of 3 because he was so completely uncontrollable. It took 2 years and multiple failed attempts to finally find a combination that we can all live with, but it doesn't fix the behavioral issues. 3am, hear noise, get out of bed, find 4yr old sitting in the freezer with tablespoon, eating ice cream, and covered in chocolate - 1pm, try to go pee for 2 seconds ALONE, come out of bathroom, find child missing, find open window with screen pushed out, find half naked child in his buzz lightyear undies walking down road to go visit his Auntie Nanice who lives a mile down the street!

Getting ready for school takes more time because you ask him to get dressed and he doesn't want to and you don't have time to argue because you are trying to get everyone up and out ON TIME today. Then you argue about socks, shoes, getting the backpack ON his back, and reminding him that no he can't take the half eaten pop-tarts in the car because last time he was covered in chocolate when you reached school and so was the car! Even something simple like watching tv can turn into a major meltdown. When things don't go your child's way, and it can seem like ages before you can calm said child down, and all the while in the back of your mind you can hear the seconds tick by as you wonder if it's still possible to get dinner ready and on the table so you can get the kids to bed at a decent time. Patience and calm are the key, you get to show no frustration and can't lose your temper or raise or voice because it only escalates the situation even though inside you are screaming bloody murder and considering chucking said child through a window just so you can have one minute of peace and no arguments :) It's a challenge in parenting I wouldn't wish on anyone.

His teacher has mentioned we should write a book of short stories since we have so many stories about our little one and his willful ways. She said she'd buy multiple copies lol The thing is his teacher is willing to work "with" him to get through the day and attempt compliance. Most teachers however are underpaid, overstressed, and try to force children to conform to the classroom environment. If we had a different teacher this year would have gone VERY differently. We are planning on pulling out our children one at a time and starting homeschooling but we are very concerned about getting him through two more years of public school without incident.

Avalon
04-18-2012, 11:37 AM
I've got some advice: Beat them.

This reminds me of something hilarious, although it's off-topic from this thread. Sorry. A bunch of younger moms were hanging out with the grandmothers. One of the grandmothers (only in her 50s) said something about how she had FOUR kids and she never had these problems with HER kids. Her daughter shot back with, "That's because you were allowed to BEAT your kids." (Which this lady did, frequently. She was famous for her "wooden spoon.")

Alanae
04-18-2012, 12:11 PM
Okay that was GREAT! I remember seeing a teenage girl in the store one day at the checkout and she was being so horrible to her poor mom. Everything she said was dripping with disdain and all I could think was "Sheesh in public or not my mother would have backhanded me!"

Lou
04-19-2012, 08:55 AM
This reminds me of something hilarious, although it's off-topic from this thread. Sorry. A bunch of younger moms were hanging out with the grandmothers. One of the grandmothers (only in her 50s) said something about how she had FOUR kids and she never had these problems with HER kids. Her daughter shot back with, "That's because you were allowed to BEAT your kids." (Which this lady did, frequently. She was famous for her "wooden spoon.")

ooooo the wooden spoon and my arse were friends for many years. And yet I recall the one time I got a belt was far worse! Far more vivid in my mind. The spoon didn't bother me really. I don't recall it's feeling. I never felt scared when I saw the wooden spoon being reached for, I ran, but no lasting horrid sank in. HOWEVER, the ONE & ONLY belt experience I endured was horrible. My next door neighbor had it worse. Her mom would use her shoe! If she had flip flops on, OUCH, if she had heels, OUCH! I'd take the spoon anyday over any of those other options! Mostly I got FLICKED! my parents were flickers! I'd get flicked out of nowhere and it was so shocking I never really knew what I did wrong, just knew out of no where came a flick on my cheek.

I'm pretty sure ODD was around back then, but by middle school or high school they probably all committed suicide or suffered some other horrible ending in life. Compassion is better IMHO. Harder for sure! But everyone needs to feel understood and loved.

Suki
04-21-2012, 07:51 PM
The poster who described an ODD girl who was "brilliant" as well is definitely on to something. A lot of what's happening these days is that we try to shove kids into smaller and smaller boxes, and some of them put up with it. But the ones with especially strong wills and strong intellects often don't. There is a very important book on how gifted kids are misdiagnosed - anyone who has a difficult gifted kid (as if there's anything else) should read it: Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses of Gifted Children and Adults by Webb et al. I read this book when my daughter was small, and it all made so much more sense. (Two other good ones: Quirky Kids and The Mislabeled Child.)

Yes, there are kids who are very oppositional. It's not a "disorder," however, unless there's no way that you can live your life unless it's dealt with. Such as, as one poster pointed out, repeated hospitalizations (for the kid or for her caregivers), inability to be a normal kid ever. All the rest of it, from kids who have trouble getting along in a boring, repetitive school classroom that doesn't suit their learning styles, to kids who drive their parents crazy with their strong wills, are healthy, unusual children. Just because our society seems hell-bent on removing unusual people from it doesn't mean that people won't be unusual. "Typical" people account for a chunk in the center -- the rest of us are unusual and they just have to deal.

So... as the parent of a child who could easily get all sorts of diagnoses, I would suggest that before chasing down an ODD diagnosis (and the dangerous psychoactive drugs that are the "treatment"), parents take a good, hard look at their child and themselves:
- Different children need to be parented differently. Yes, I felt fabulous that Positive Discipline worked so nicely with my first child. It was a total bomb with my second. She needs a consistent, very firm hand. It's not my natural mode of parenting, but we've all gotten a lot happier now that she knows the rules.
- Unusual children will simply have a harder row to hoe in life. It breaks my heart sometimes to think of how hard life can be for kids who don't fit in, but the fact is, you can't make them into usual children. The good news is that as they grow out of childhood, they will be able to choose a life that fits their personality. Right now, as children, we force all kids to have the same life regardless of whether it's the right life for them. But your obstinate child will turn into a hard-headed woman who may be the one who refused to get up from that seat on the bus or refused to believe that a disease couldn't be cured.
- The hardest thing for parents to come to terms with is that our kids' behavior does NOT always reflect whether or not we are good people or good parents. Sometimes it's just the child's behavior. One of the best things that happened to me when my daughter was small was in a grocery store when she was throwing one of her out-of-body fits. I was holding the line and very focused. An elderly woman approached, and my heart sank. Oh, no, here comes the criticism. She patted me on the arm and said, "You're doing a good job, Mom."

So... my rant for the day! I hope it was useful.

Suki

April Daviage
04-24-2012, 11:28 AM
I have a son with ADD and ODD. *Most* days, he's pretty great to be around. He's a very lovable 13 year old boy. Other days, not so much. (Today, as a matter of fact, is one of the "not so much" days.) :-(

He's not so much the manipulative type, mostly because we don't allow it. He LOVES to argue. I mean LOVES it!! We nip that immediately by counting. Whatever number we get to is how many days he will endure without privileges (computer, video games, t.v., etc.). The one thing I won't take away from him is outdoor time because he does so much better when he's gotten a lot of exercise!

How does it relate to his schooling? Hm. Well, today, he's showing that he's extremely distracted. He has been in and out of his seat at least 20 times in the last hour or so. He's doing things that he KNOWS will irritate and annoy myself and his 14 year old brother (who is trying to do his school work). What's he doing? Let's see.... he's got a bottled water that he froze and has been going in and out of the back door to smash the bottle in order to break up the ice (not so annoying).... but then he comes in the door and shakes the bottle (LOUDLY). This isn't daily behavior for him. However, the moment he started shaking the bottle, I took it away. No more bottled. No more noise. No more irritation. I have no doubt that, at some point today, he'll do something else to irritate us. But... I just remove him from whatever it is he's doing. Kind of like with toddlers. They say one of the best ways to get them to stop doing something that is unacceptable is to remove them from the situation. That's what I do with my son. I remove him from the situation (or take away an object that he's using to annoy others).

Another thing I see in him that I don't think all kids with ODD display is a sense of conscience... but only when it's been pointed out that he's irritating someone else. When we point out that he doesn't like others irritating him and remind him of how it feels, he tends to stop much quicker. I describe it to others in this way - He knows that there is a consequence for his actions, but when he's doing something that is unacceptable or annoying, his brain doesn't make the connection... until it's too late and he's gotten himself into trouble. However, I can say that the counting the days works WONDERS for him!! When we first started that *technique* we'd get up to 15, sometimes 20 days. He HATED it! Now, we MIGHT get up to 4 or 5 days. So it works. But there needs to be a lot of consistency in order for it to work.

Kids with RAD are totally different and I have a step son, who lives with us full time, who I suspect has RAD. But he's hasn't been *officially* diagnosed. He's been diagnosed with ADHD, conduct disorder and adjustment disorder. (We do not homeschool him.) My son who has ADD & ODD has been in counseling and I have learned how to handle him. My step son has also been in therapy, but needs constant/continued therapy (and we are also looking at a summer residential treatment program for him). It sounds like, whether this child you're talking about has RAD, ODD or some other behavioral *thing* going on, she should be evaluated. I have read that many (not all, but many) adopted children have attachment issues. Also, I have a book called "When Love Is Not Enough: A Guide to Parenting Children With RAD" by Nancy L. Thomas. It also covers how to handle kids with ODD, ADD, Conduct Disorder, etc. It has a lot of suggestions for giving logical consequences for all different kinds of situations. It has helped us a lot with my son and my step son. :-)

Jennene
09-11-2012, 08:32 AM
Hi all. I'm new here to the forum and joined simply because of this thread. I currently homeschool my 3rd grade Daughter who is diagnosed as ODD. I suspect that she may also have GAD or some other anxiety/adjustment disorder as well and/or a posible thyroid issue, we are still in the testing phase with those. It's so frustrating because all the professionals tell us that if we put her into public school that all of her behavioral problems will magically disappear. Can you believe that load of malarky? The funny thing is that we did put her into public school...... for 5 whole days. It was HELL! She kept her composure at school luckily but bottled up all her feelings and emotions until she got home which was horrible for our entire family. We pulled her back out and am so glad I did but even though her anxiety level is greatly diminished, she is still having major problems. This poor kid has been in an inpatient facility multiple times due to her violence.... did I mention she is only eight? She is of above average intelligence (I had her formally tested to make sure we didn't miss any learning difficulties or disorders) and interacts normally with everyone else so far.... what is a Mom to do? I KNOW I'm not the only one who home schools due to special needs, but all the scholarly overpaid decision makers - uh Doctors, sorry - seem to think that it's the worst decision we could make. Im sure my being a die-hard champion of home education only raises possible diagnoses in their minds for me too. "Ah yes, this is where the Daughter gets it from." I should mention that I am a product of homeschooling myself. I spent every year except for 3rd grade at home, and I loved it! :) My question/issue is this: if public school is so great, then why can't these trained professionals, who have been pushed through the public school system, mind you, make suggestions for the benefit of helping my Daughter? Isn't there something to be said for true intelligence consisting, at least in part, of creative problem solving and thinking outside the box? Yikes, it's scary that because I refuse to publicly educate my little girl that they have no other plan for treatment and can't be bothered to even modify their suggestions to fit the home education component of our lifestyle. I'm open to suggestions if you have any. Thanks for reading.

dbmamaz
09-11-2012, 04:29 PM
Not sure if you read any of the thread above - im not going to re-read it myself either ;)

When my youngest was 4, i was pretty sure he was ODD. He would scream "NO!" when I said it was time for lunch, if i asked him if he was hungry for lunch, if I asked him if he wanted a sandwich or pizza for lunch, whatever. screaming. If I picked him up, kicking and screaming, and sat him down in front of his food, he would shut up and eat it. I also at times had to sit on him, at age 4, to stop him from biting me after I pulled him off of his older brother.

removing all artificial food additives (color, preservatives, everything) from his diet made a big difference. he was not as violent, but still screamed a lot. I had gone off dairy and gluten, and then taken my teen off them (cleared up his daily bouts of diarrhea), and i started noticing he seemed to scream more after eating pizza. I took him off gluten and dairy too. it helped.

School? no thanks. He went through all of kindergarten (already on the good diet) and was traumatized. Getting him back in by middle school MIGHT be possible, but he's pretty confident he could handle high school . . .

Doctors, i seldom find them helpful. extremely frustrating. have you read any of the books about difficult kids? i cant remember the names, but there are a bunch of them

Dutchbabiesx2
09-11-2012, 10:23 PM
ditto the food additives:
MSG, Gelatin Calcium Caseinate
Monosodium glutamate
Hydrolyzed Vegetable Protein (HVP)
Textured Protein
Monopotassium glutamate
Hydrolyzed Plant Protein (HPP)
Yeast Extract
Glutamate
Autolyzed Plant Protein
Yeast food or nutrient
Glutamic Acid
Sodium Caseinate
Autolyzed Yeast
Vegetable Protein Extract
Senomyx (wheat extract labeled as artificial flavor)

Dutchbabiesx2
09-11-2012, 10:25 PM
also:
Malted Barley (flavor) Natural Flavors, Flavors, Flavoring
Modified food starch
Barley malt
Reaction Flavors
Rice syrup or brown rice syrup
Malt Extract or Flavoring
Natural Chicken, Beef, or Pork, Flavoring "Seasonings" (Most assume this means salt, pepper, or spices and herbs, which sometimes it is.)
Lipolyzed butter fat
Maltodextrin, dextrose, dextrates
Soy Sauce or Extract
"Low" or "No Fat" items
Caramel Flavoring (coloring)
Soy Protein
Corn syrup and corn syrup solids, high fructose corn syrup


Soy Protein Isolate or Concentrate
Citric Acid (when processed from corn)
Broth
Cornstarch
Milk Powder


Flowing Agents
Dry Milk Solids


Wheat, rice, corn, or oat protein
Protein Fortified Milk
Whey Protein or Whey
Anything enriched or vitamin enriched
Annatto
Whey Protein Isolate or Concentrate
Protein fortified "anything"

Dutchbabiesx2
09-11-2012, 10:27 PM
Spice

Pectin
Enzyme modified proteins
Gums (guar and vegetable)
Protease
Ultra-pasteurized dairy products
Dough Conditioners
Protease enzymes
Fermented proteins
Yeast Nutrients
Lecithin- we have not had any problems from this though

Gluten and gluten flour
Protein powders: whey, soy, oat, rice (as in protein bars shakes and body building drinks)

Amino acids (as in Bragg's liquid amino acids and chelated to vitamins)
Algae, phytoplankton, sea vegetable, wheat/ barley grass powders
Fructose (made from corn)

Carrageenan - my son has a severe physical and emotional reaction to this (this one might actually be a food allergy for him though)
Dairy stabilizers

Here is the complete list http://www.msgmyth.com/Hidden_Names_for_MSG.pdf
HUGE difference in my son, no more anxiety (it does take time to rid oneself of habits mind you), sensory issues- either they are diminished or he deals with them in a way they seem to have vanished.

HUGE
no more rages, no more hiding or running away during conflict
he is able to manage challenges . . HUGE

I hope you will consider it. We still do wheat and dairy, we did cut it out and slowly put them back in and he does fine with them, but each kiddo is different.

Good luck.

dbmamaz
09-12-2012, 10:32 AM
I personally believe that list is excessive . . .i dont avoid ALL those things. I use soy sauce, for example - gluten free soy sauce. I use nutritional yeast. I sometimes use corn syrup (tho he really doesnt eat most of the things that have it) I use guar gum. but you have to find a way to make it work for you

Dutchbabiesx2
09-12-2012, 08:31 PM
what all these things have in common is that the Glutamic Acid is unbound as a protein. Then it becomes and Excitotoxin . . . There is not (at least for us) a pick and choose. We have not tried all of these items, I can tell you the items our son has reacted to:
Malted Barely
Citric Acid (as an additive, not from lemons)
Enriched Wheats
Yeats Extract
added Protein (from protein bars)
and worst reaction from Carrageenan.

I say try 5 weeks of strict diet and note if you find a difference. I wish I could just go shopping with people and help them make that part easier until they make the decision if this is better for your family or not.

dbmamaz
09-12-2012, 11:05 PM
my youngest eats very little other than fresh cooked food, organic rice cakes and gluten free pretzels, and organic gluten free cereal. some soy milk with the cereal. all natural uncured bacon and ham and smoked turkey. Whole foods IS my grocery store for the most part.

but i've definitely seen a reaction from annatto coloring, which is considered 'natural'.

something is bothering his stomach sometimes, too, but i'm not sure what . . .could even be chicken or potatoes . .. just not sure. we did try a gluten free fish stick yesterday and the way he loved it obsessively and then had a stomach problem today does worry me

Dutchbabiesx2
09-13-2012, 12:15 AM
Typically Soy milk, and also Almond milk have Carrageenan in them, this can cause leaky gut.
I also notice that GF products have more items in them that are not 'natural' as in you grew them in your back yard. even GF breads have more items (usually) than just the products that are just bread and water and yeast and salt.

Beckman
09-14-2012, 09:49 PM
What I am hearing is that the gluten free products only take care of the proteins that are problematic and these other items on the list are a different protein.

So this entire list is the same protein manipulated. DutchBabies? Or is it a variance on them? I know a little about GFCF.. but not this other Glutamic Acid that you speak of.

dbmamaz
09-14-2012, 10:48 PM
Its not all protein-based. 'true allergies' supposedly have to be to proteins, but you can be sensitive to anything. Obviously dyes arent proteins. People can be allergic to fruits. I cant handle turmeric or canola oil.