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Dutchbabiesx2
05-23-2011, 01:15 PM
So over the weekend I read a few articles and posts about HS'ers and Math. Mostly I read of math as some alien subject to be hated and feared.

In our house my 7 year old eats it up like chocolate cake! We use Singapore and I love it, we bought several books as second hand (unused) and I get excited as I read through the books that lie ahead!
My 8 year old can do it too and when it deals with money (he has his own 'bank' with safe and computer and everything!) he does just fine. All math concepts must be in terms of saving or spending money (even fractions!). Soon we are getting into calculating interest rates and %'s and they are actually excited about that!

While I am at an advantage of having an Engineer hubby and binary counting has already been covered, and my kids are only 7 and 8 (so no calculus), I don't understand why math can't be loved like literature . . . which is my weak subject to teach.

And I guess you would not be be surprised that sciences are our second strongest subject thus far.

any other math lovers out there?

AddlepatedMonkeyMama
05-23-2011, 01:38 PM
We are a Singapore family, too, with engineer genes coming through in both kid's math skills (my father-in-law was an engineer then a college math teacher). My husband loves math more than I do and is good about showing the kids fun things to do with numbers (drawing Fibonacci spirals, calculating percentages, etc.).

I'd love to take them to a Math Circle classes (do they have these in other cities?) where they could do something more fun than workbook math, but my son has a strong aversion to sitting through stuff like that unless the teacher is really capable of keeping him focused. Le sigh...

Dutchbabiesx2
05-23-2011, 01:58 PM
We are a Singapore family, too,
I see many suggestions for math cirriculum on here and Singapore does not seem to be a top contender, but I'm very happy with it as are my boys.


I'd love to take them to a Math Circle classes (do they have these in other cities?) where they could do something more fun than workbook math, but my son has a strong aversion to sitting through stuff like that unless the teacher is really capable of keeping him focused. Le sigh...
hmm . .math circles, sounds interesting, what do they do?

Wild~Iris
05-23-2011, 02:06 PM
No mathathlete here, but we love math. I shudder to admit this, my kids can run circles around me when it comes to simple, everyday math. My daughter shakes her head sadly at me while she quickly figures a problem in her head. I am too slow counting on my fingers

When teaching math, especially at the lower grades, I stay excited and enthusiastic. I play math like a game. The kids like this attitude. They love correcting me and the silliness keeps the mornings moving. Not everyday is like this, but I strive.

Accidental Homeschooler
05-23-2011, 02:19 PM
I have to admit to being formerly math adverse. I think for me, and probably a lot of others, math in school went too fast. I could learn it but I needed more time. Always struggling to keep up takes a toll on the self-confidence. I did not realize that I could actually be good at math until grad school when I took statistics (it was required or I certainly would have avoided it). I took intermediate algebra a year ago when I started working on another degree (accounting, currently on hold while we get comfortable hsing) and needed to go back and learn what I had so successfully avoided through high school and college. I am glad I did as I am able to assist my dd with pre-algebra now and am feeling pretty confident about Algebra I in the Fall. I use Singapore with my 5yo dd and am finding it to be really effective for her. I wish I could have been hsed as I could have worked at my own pace and not felt like I was ALWAYS behind everyone else.

Eileen
05-23-2011, 03:25 PM
I'm not afraid of math (at least, not at the elementary school level), but I can't honestly imagine ever loving it. Not because of difficulty, I just find it boring. I think it's a personality thing. My husband and older daughter are the same way (not sure about my little dd yet), so we are just not a math family. When we had my 8 year old tested, we were shocked to find that her math scores were almost as high as her language ones, but she's advanced by several years in language and barely at all in math. I am looking into Singapore. I'd love to find something that makes math enjoyable for her.

farrarwilliams
05-23-2011, 03:30 PM
I love math. I'm not that great at it past basic algebra, but I really like elementary math. Not only that, but I find it to be one of the easiest things to teach. It's basically just open and go. I like adding my own impromptu lessons when they get stuck. And anything else we do - brain teasers, picture books, little projects - is so clearly icing. It's not like with history where I feel like I'm failing if we don't do at least some projects or science where I feel like you need experiments and hands on activities to learn. Math projects is obviously just funsies.

dbmamaz
05-23-2011, 03:36 PM
I love singapore, but most ppl seem to want something less textbooky - a lot of ppl hate worksheets or want to have most early math be hands-on. Also, math mammoth is often recommended over singapore because its all in one book, instead of a text and a workbook and a . . . idk, whatever the book is with the answers.

I started w singapore for my 6 yo last year, and it was fine, but he hated working with me on it. He's now doing T4L, and i dont like how slow the math is. I tried to get him to do khan academy, but he tired of it quickly. I hope to work through the Zaccarro elementary challenge math with him over the summer - I tried it some last year, and he didnt have the patience. He is really strong on math conceptually, but getting him to write down the numbers to do math is like torture. getting him to be patient w something he doesnt understand the first time he looks at it is also tough.

My older one reasonable with math, except he cant learn his math facts - we've been working on it for years. We're doing one of the easier singapore higher level maths (new syllabus), and it works well because i'm using it as a text and I'm teaching it - i didnt use the home guide (this series doesnt have one), but i'm strong enough (until about trig) that its not a problem. He needs me to hold his hand, and i need to be aware of the intention behind the problems i have to help him with, so it works for us.

I plan on having both boys read some murderous maths over the summer, as review/preview. And i hope the young/stubborn one will be able to handle some LOF soon - my older one couldnt. Do you know about AOPS (http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/index.php?)?

math was my favorite subject in school and my husband has 2 degrees in math and 2 in actuarial science (which is basically applied math). I dont do literature, art, or gym.

Busygoddess
05-23-2011, 03:37 PM
Personally, my dislike of Math stems from the fact that it is about as interesting as watching grass grow. It is a painfully boring subject. I never had a problem with understanding Math, and have always felt that the schools move through it much too slowly. I simply can't stand the repetitive nature of it, though. My daughter despises Math for the same reason. Unfortunately, she deals with it in the exact opposite way I did. I did the work, got it over with, and moved on to something more interesting. She fights, whines, complains, and repeatedly hands in incorrect work (and it's not incorrect because she doesn't understand it, but has often been incorrect due to not reading the problem before writing down an answer), because she is truly hoping that she'll annoy us enough that we simply won't require her to do Math anymore. She is years behind where she should (she should be doing Trig by now, based on her apptitude for Math) be in Math because she fights & slacks so much about it. My son, on the other hand, adores Math (much like my husband). He looks forward to it every day. He is flying through his Math program, and would probably do Math all day if he could.

Eileen
05-23-2011, 04:20 PM
Brandi, I fear that's how it's going to be with my daughter. I guess I could always threaten to send her back to public school if she complains too much. ;)

farrarwilliams
05-23-2011, 04:26 PM
See, I think it actually *is* interesting. :D

dbmamaz
05-23-2011, 04:30 PM
See, I think it actually *is* interesting. :D
Me too . .. its just . . .cool. Its makes sense . . . its like doing puzzles all day long. like when I started doing database work and I felt like they were letting me play video games and get paid for it

Jeni
05-23-2011, 04:34 PM
I am a detester of math right here. I'm fairly certain I have dyscalculia, a math disability, though I was never tested. Dh on the other hand loves math and I want my kids to inherit the ability to do math like dad can. Dd is very science and math oriented so I know she'll do well.


She fights, whines, complains, and repeatedly hands in incorrect work (and it's not incorrect because she doesn't understand it, but has often been incorrect due to not reading the problem before writing down an answer), because she is truly hoping that she'll annoy us enough that we simply won't require her to do Math anymore. She is years behind where she should (she should be doing Trig by now, based on her apptitude for Math) be in Math because she fights & slacks so much about it. My son, on the other hand, adores Math (much like my husband). He looks forward to it every day. He is flying through his Math program, and would probably do Math all day if he could.

My dd does the same thing. She has done it since preschool before we caught on to the game. She will do somersaults to push my buttons knowing if she digs in hard enough I will become so angry that I will send her from lessons and she'll get out of it. I can usually stop the behavior but sometimes it's just too much and I have to let her win before I go insane.

CatInTheSun
05-23-2011, 04:59 PM
I think there is a broad misconception about what math IS. It's more than arithmetic and algebra. It's a way of thinking. The written form has only been around the last few hundred years, before that math was expressed in sentences. It is no more 3+4=7 than writing is just grammar. It has more in common with art and music than rote.

There is a great (NOVA I think) special on math ed out there. In it they discuss how preschoolers spend something like 80% of their playtime doing math (sorting, counting, comparing) -- young kids LOVE math! Yet within a couple years of formal education, most hate it. Their explanation is we teach to the logic part of the brain, but neglect the creative side (part of the brain lit up in PET scans by math and music). It would be like teaching piano but only letting kids play scales for years and years. We take away the "play". We kill the joy. That's not a problem with MATH, that's a problem with how we teach it. Probably because we forget that math is innate and personal and not really "taught", more like refined.

ETA: I'm not blaming the parent/teacher, just the whole approach by most curricula. A lot of that has to do with teaching 25 at a time for convenience's sake.

AddlepatedMonkeyMama
05-23-2011, 05:12 PM
hmm . .math circles, sounds interesting, what do they do?

It's sort of a "math club" founded by three local teachers about 15 years ago to give kids of all ages a chance to play around with math concepts that they may not be exposed to at school. Here's a link to the history and topics: http://www.themathcircle.org/history.php

farrarwilliams
05-23-2011, 05:23 PM
Me too . .. its just . . .cool. Its makes sense . . . its like doing puzzles all day long. like when I started doing database work and I felt like they were letting me play video games and get paid for it

Yeah. I see it like a fun puzzle I get to play around with. One thing I'm especially liking right now is helping the kids see ways to add two and three digit numbers mentally - stuff I wish someone had taught me that I now do naturally - like borrowing back and forth to make numbers become 10's and 5's so they're easier to work with. They don't quite have it yet, but they will.

But I'm not with you on the database work. Databases do not do it for me. :D


I think there is a broad misconception about what math IS. It's more than arithmetic and algebra. It's a way of thinking. The written form has only been around the last few hundred years, before that math was expressed in sentences. It is no more 3+4=7 than writing is just grammar. It has more in common with art and music than rote.


Yes. :)

I have a regret that I never learned math "properly." I have what I think is a really solid elementary math foundation. But beyond basic algebra, I simply never learned much math. I never liked it in school (only later... alas) and I often had the problem in high school that the upper level math moved too fast for me at my super competitive school but the lower level math was so dull and slow that I felt like beating my head against the desk and stopped paying attention... thus missing the new information. I guess it's never too late. I sort of think when the kids get to 8th grade or so, I'll get to do math along with them and that will be kind of fun.

belacqua
05-23-2011, 05:53 PM
I think there is a broad misconception about what math IS. It's more than arithmetic and algebra. It's a way of thinking. The written form has only been around the last few hundred years, before that math was expressed in sentences. It is no more 3+4=7 than writing is just grammar. It has more in common with art and music than rote.



Well said. I've always been pretty indifferent to math, but having a math-obsessed kid has brought me at least to the periphery of the world of people who genuinely appreciate its beauty and mystery. I used to believe math was all about getting the right answer, but I've overheard kids who, having already correctly solved a problem, spend hours trying to solve it better. They want that elegance, and they get so frustrated if they have to, say, bash an inequality. They speak of rigor and muscularity, because math is a physical, almost living, thing for them.

There is, of course, at least in our house, a tradeoff. I could spend those same hours discussing the beauty and nuance of Homer. Whereas Mathboy's takeaway from The Odyssey is, "Good story. Odysseus is a big crybaby, though." :rolleyes:

dottieanna29
05-23-2011, 06:03 PM
I don't know if I would consider myself a math lover but I'm not intimidated by it or hate it either. At least not up to the calculus level - after that you can forget about it. ;-) I love geometry, proofs, the logic behind it all. I love to play Kakuro. I have a science degree and that's my true love but, of course there was a lot of math to take to get it.

DH, on the other hand, probably counts as a math lover. He has a degree in Chemistry and always said his second degree would be in math if he took the time to do it. He has taken way more math than I have, including some really abstract stuff. It comes very easy for him and, at least as far as we can tell at 5 years old, ds seems to take after him.

Stella M
05-23-2011, 06:07 PM
We're not exactly math lovers, although ds skates through his maths pretty easily. Something eldest dd and I are enjoying is algebra; we both find it satisfying. As far as maths goes. Maths is fine, not my fave. It doesn't need to be my favourite thing on earth to raise kids who are competent at maths. And not being in love with maths doesn't mean I am scared of it :) It's just something to be done efficiently as possible. My brain isn't wired to obsess over an equation; it's wired to obsess over the way a line of poetry scans. No biggie, the world is full of different types. I'm completely open to some people experiencing as much beauty through maths as I do through a poem.

If ds wants or needs to do higher maths ( Yr 11 and 12 ) I'll probably outsource to a tutor. Right now I try and find fun and interesting maths stuff for him to do, as it seems he has an interest. DD's don't have a great interest, so competency is our aim there.

But who knows ? My maths experience in school was similar to Farrar's - great primary school education, gradually lost my way with it through high school. Maybe if I'd had an amazing teacher who could have kept me enjoying maths, I'd feel differently. I did love maths until 7th grade...

I just think it's a bit of a call to paint homeschoolers generally as maths phobic or maths hating. It's all in the lens through which you view things. I probably see a lot more LA anxiety myself.

Stella M
05-23-2011, 07:56 PM
Thanks though for such an interesting topic - I've been thinking of it all through breakfast, dishes, beds and shower!

I guess the way I look at it is that all acquisition and use of knowledge is a way of ordering the universe. Which specific way should be child-led. I have one child who tries to order her world through art, another through relationship and a third through making and engineering. If I had a child who needed to order her world through mathematical thought, I'd make sure she had more than enough room, support and extension for that. I 'see' a lot of homeschoolers putting thought and effort into maths.

I don't see a real division between maths people and other people, because we're all doing the same thing through different ways.

The real shame is when a child is left floundering and unsupported in their way, whatever it is.

MrsLOLcat
05-23-2011, 08:38 PM
I'm not a mathy person... until you get to the more advanced algebra. I loved algebra and trigonometry, though I never cared much for geometry. I never did calculus because I was lazy. I'm definitely more of an English person, though. My son is a science person. He can take or leave the basic math stuff, but I'm making him get a solid foundation because if he intends to work in a scientific field, I think he'll need a good base. I can't wait to get him into the more advanced stuff, though. I think he'll run with it.

My daughter, on the other hand, enjoys the simple stuff. I can't tell yet whether she'll enjoy learning further as she gets older, but either way, as long as she doesn't hate it, my work here is done ;)

Dutchbabiesx2
05-24-2011, 01:54 AM
I think there is a broad misconception about what math IS. It's more than arithmetic and algebra. It's a way of thinking. The written form has only been around the last few hundred years, before that math was expressed in sentences. It is no more 3+4=7 than writing is just grammar. It has more in common with art and music than rote.

There is a great (NOVA I think) special on math ed out there. In it they discuss how preschoolers spend something like 80% of their playtime doing math (sorting, counting, comparing) -- young kids LOVE math! Yet within a couple years of formal education, most hate it. Their explanation is we teach to the logic part of the brain, but neglect the creative side (part of the brain lit up in PET scans by math and music). It would be like teaching piano but only letting kids play scales for years and years. We take away the "play". We kill the joy. That's not a problem with MATH, that's a problem with how we teach it. Probably because we forget that math is innate and personal and not really "taught", more like refined.

ETA: I'm not blaming the parent/teacher, just the whole approach by most curricula. A lot of that has to do with teaching 25 at a time for convenience's sake.

This is one reason I like the Singapore math curriculum . . .a lot of story problems! I was once told by a former HS'er that kids basically need to be able to manipulate numbers in their heads before they can attempt harder calculations . . it made total sense, so how every my kid learns to add, subtract, multiply (group) divide (grouping again) and wrap their heads around it, I'm good with that!
I'm reading "Free Range Learning" by Laura Grace Weldon at the moment . . she sites a study about putting off formal calculation type math and incorporating the verbiage of math into literacy. The findings at the time where that those who studied formal math later matched their traditionally taught peers in the end . . very thought provoking, though I do have a math lover and we will continue that path for him, the other one, I've backed off and instead let him learn more real life and some worksheets.

I have to add this . . . once my boys grasped simple subtraction (5-4=1) I then gave them 10 dimes to equal 1 dollar. I then played shop with them. Everything came down to needing pennies (we had just dimes and pennies). They had to give me 1 dime and I would give them 10 pennies. I had made an outline on a dry erase board and they counted back the change. We did this until they no longer actually moved the pennies and dimes around physically. We then did longer and longer subtraction problems (which they actually loved doing!) until we got into the millions. They learned no problem is too long, just take 2 rows at a time! This was early in our HS life and I hold it as one of my fondest memories!

I also like to give them some odd amount of money, say $5.42, and let them go to the store to find things. I LOVE it when they start to bargain with each other for a few cents or when they combine money to buy two items. I know we can't do this every week, but it is great! I find cashiers have so much patience with them and are sure to work with them so they know how much change they get if any.

now you all have me excited again (I was already, but more now!) about learning how to figure the wold out in measurements!

Kylie
05-24-2011, 02:46 AM
I think there is a broad misconception about what math IS. It's more than arithmetic and algebra. It's a way of thinking. The written form has only been around the last few hundred years, before that math was expressed in sentences. It is no more 3+4=7 than writing is just grammar. It has more in common with art and music than rote.

There is a great (NOVA I think) special on math ed out there. In it they discuss how preschoolers spend something like 80% of their playtime doing math (sorting, counting, comparing) -- young kids LOVE math! Yet within a couple years of formal education, most hate it. Their explanation is we teach to the logic part of the brain, but neglect the creative side (part of the brain lit up in PET scans by math and music). It would be like teaching piano but only letting kids play scales for years and years. We take away the "play". We kill the joy. That's not a problem with MATH, that's a problem with how we teach it. Probably because we forget that math is innate and personal and not really "taught", more like refined.

ETA: I'm not blaming the parent/teacher, just the whole approach by most curricula. A lot of that has to do with teaching 25 at a time for convenience's sake.

See this is why I dislike Math I know it, it was all in the way I was taught...which is soo hard to get away from when you don't feel strong in a subject and you also only have the way you were taught to fall back on!

Busygoddess
05-27-2011, 10:15 PM
However, I will say that I don't know if we can always blame curriculum or teaching methods for making kids hate math. My daughter says she hates it, even though she's good at it, even though I've tried my best to make it fun, even though I've used a curriculum that's not all rote memorization and worksheets, even though I've tried to back off when she's getting stressed out, even though I've given her plenty of time to let something simmer when I knew she wasn't getting it. She still says she hates it. It makes me sad, because I really wanted her to enjoy math and have tried so hard to make it enjoyable for her. Especially since it seemed so magical to me once I figured out what the heck was going on with all those numbers on the paper.

This is what I wish more people would understand. Some people will never like Math, regardless of method, curriculum, who is teaching it, talent, understanding, being allowed to go at own pace, etc. Some people just don't like Math. Unfortunately, people who do like Math all too often assume that lack of understanding must be the reason others don't enjoy it. When they find out that you understand Math & still don't like it, they look at you like you suddenly sprouted several extra heads, right there in front of them. Obviously, not everyone who enjoys Math reacts that way, but way too many do.

Ariadne
05-27-2011, 10:18 PM
Personally, my dislike of Math stems from the fact that it is about as interesting as watching grass grow. It is a painfully boring subject. Those are fighting words! :p


See, I think it actually *is* interesting. :DYay!


Me too . .. its just . . .cool. Its makes sense . . . its like doing puzzles all day long. like when I started doing database work and I felt like they were letting me play video games and get paid for itNo kidding. When I worked in software I felt the same way.


I don't see a real division between maths people and other people, because we're all doing the same thing through different ways.Here's where I disagree. I *do* see a large divide in the worldview of those who get math vs. those who don't, especially if you've made it as far as calculus. The world looks different when viewed through that lens; I've been with it and without it, and it was a paradigm shift for me.

Certain conversations cannot be had with people who aren't interested or don't "get it". They do not view the world in the same way. I'd go into more detail but it might bore you. :o

Stella M
05-28-2011, 05:14 AM
Things look different to you, a maths person, and me, a poetry person - sure. But we are both using our knowledge to order chaos. Imo.

And things look different to you pre and post calculus but how do we know your post-calculus isn't similar to my post-lyricism ?

They are languages through which we impose and explore meaning. Different languages, same function.

Riceball_Mommy
05-28-2011, 09:25 AM
Math for me looking back I always did well in, but a combination of my home environment, where I'm made to feel like a failure for getting a B or C (parents only, grandparents were great), and the environment in school with the other kids (all the "math sucks" talk). I actually kind of liked math but could never admit it, now I have to get my daughter to slow down because she's about a week ahead in math. Math is the first thing she wants to do in the morning, and she's always wanting to do more than one lesson.

I found parts of algebra really hard, until college, and loved geometry. So I do agree sometimes it's just the way you are taught, and sometimes it's just a matter of the material being something you get.

Laina
05-28-2011, 10:09 AM
Here's where I disagree. I *do* see a large divide in the worldview of those who get math vs. those who don't, especially if you've made it as far as calculus. The world looks different when viewed through that lens; I've been with it and without it, and it was a paradigm shift for me.

Certain conversations cannot be had with people who aren't interested or don't "get it". They do not view the world in the same way. I'd go into more detail but it might bore you. :o

Isn't this true of any subject that you have studied in depth? I certainly look at the world differently through having studied literature and history in college and grad school from the way my husband, the psychologist, does. I don't have long conversations about Virginia Woolf with my sister the accountant. I don't see that math is special in this regard.

dbmamaz
05-28-2011, 12:21 PM
I did take calculus in high school and college, but i didnt find it life-changing. I found an article my freind the psych grad student gave me to be lifechanging, tho. It was from a high-level seminar-type class, and she said she couldnt get through it, but it astounded me. it was about the invisible sexism in scientific research.

dbmamaz
05-28-2011, 02:07 PM
The only thing I remember clearly from the article (and it was literally a photocopied article from a scientific journal) was that all animal studies studied the male behavior or anatomy, and then noted how the female 'differed' from the male. Which really gives us the message that male is 'normal' and female is 'different'. Of course, this was in the mid-80s . . . most research scientists were still male.

the other thing I remember - but I dont know if it was in that same article - was the classic psych study of putting toddlers behind a glass barrier, with their moms on the other side. The boys tended to try to beat the wall down, and the girls more often would stand near it and look at their mom and cry and put thier hands up to be picked up. The original interpretation was that boys were active and girls were passive. The later interpretation, by female researchers, was that boys were using a physical method to try to achieve their goal, and girls were using a verbal method. Furthermore, the girls achieved their goal much more quickly - the mothers came and picked them up. The boys would often continue to ram the wall for long periods of time, making no progress at all.

I thought the book 'differnet minds' had a section on girls with aspergers, but now i'm not finding it. I know i've seen a few interesting things on line .. .but i didnt book mark them? sorry

Ariadne
05-28-2011, 02:15 PM
Things look different to you, a maths person, and me, a poetry person - sure. But we are both using our knowledge to order chaos. Imo.

And things look different to you pre and post calculus but how do we know your post-calculus isn't similar to my post-lyricism ?

They are languages through which we impose and explore meaning. Different languages, same function.If you can do math, entire career paths open up that aren't available otherwise. It is a huge priority in my house because of this.

Yes, they are different languages. I cannot know if your post-lyricism isn't similar to my post-calculus as I cannot climb inside your head.

But it's highly unlikely. You are viewing the world through a different lens than I. Both bring meaning to the world, but it's disingenuous at best to claim they are the same.

I see math and science everywhere now. I am sure you see poetry everywhere. They have similarities, but they aren't anywhere near the same.

The best way for us to compare ourselves would be to discuss it. How has your education changed how you view the world? Can you give specific examples? You have me very curious now. :)

CatInTheSun
05-28-2011, 05:11 PM
The only thing I remember clearly from the article (and it was literally a photocopied article from a scientific journal) was that all animal studies studied the male behavior or anatomy, and then noted how the female 'differed' from the male. Which really gives us the message that male is 'normal' and female is 'different'. Of course, this was in the mid-80s . . . most research scientists were still male.

the other thing I remember - but I dont know if it was in that same article - was the classic psych study of putting toddlers behind a glass barrier, with their moms on the other side. The boys tended to try to beat the wall down, and the girls more often would stand near it and look at their mom and cry and put thier hands up to be picked up. The original interpretation was that boys were active and girls were passive. The later interpretation, by female researchers, was that boys were using a physical method to try to achieve their goal, and girls were using a verbal method. Furthermore, the girls achieved their goal much more quickly - the mothers came and picked them up. The boys would often continue to ram the wall for long periods of time, making no progress at all.


That's funny -- I vividly remember watching a video in HS about gender and one of the experiments was to take a baby (I'm guessing maybe 8mo). They had a room and a big box of toys. They had a group of moms come in and play with the baby. Then they put a dress on the baby (who was a boy) and did the same thing. The results were extreme -- the moms put the "boy" on the floor encouraged him to be noisy and gave him trucks and blocks; they held, soothed, and gave soft toys to the "girl". One of the conclusions was that it's hard to discuss gender differences (even of the brain) when we treat the genders so different from birth.

Back to math: I don't think math is like poetry or most subjects. It is an disciplined language to study logical thought, symbolic math is actually just a "shorthand" more than anything. I do think is is very much like philosophy, which is another discipline that follows rules to try to uncover truth. I don't think it is an accident that up until the last few centuries, mathematicians and philosophers were the same thing. Einstein used equations to prove what he'd already figured out had to be true thru the process of asking "what would happen if...", visualizing it, and thinking it through. I think he was a philosopher first and a mathematician second (like most good scientists), but as either he had to follow the rules of nature and logic. Artists, on the other hand, often make up their own rules as they go.

Calculus is really just the beginning. It's sad we don't teach our kids "math" beyond what was known 200 years ago. Think about that -- if we did that in other subjects it would be like skipping US history almost altogether, and prolly >80% of science.

Stella M
05-28-2011, 06:32 PM
Successful artists make up their own rules after they have conquered the rules :) And to learn to view the world through metaphor, rhythm and image and to express it through those same techniques isn't as easy or meaningless as you might think! Poetry is a disciplined language that tries to uncover and express human truth through an internal and external logic. As someone who has spent many, many years studying it, writing it and editing it for others, I think I can safely reject the notion of poetry as undisciplined words vomited randomly across the page.

I didn't say 'same lens'. I said 'similar.' I said any lens performs the same function. You can use any type of knowledge to create meaning in your life. Maths, music, the written language, relationship with other, physical movement, scientific discovery...the list is endless.

Maths is important. This is why maths is the only compulsory subject in our homeschool :) But the world doesn't end if you don't love it and decide not to pursue it! despite being competent in the subject.

The OP said those who didn't love maths were scared of it. I say, no, in my experience, it is not a fear or a fault. There are many lenses through which we are drawn to see the world and each lens ( whilst obviously not leading to the same career paths ) is a valid one through which to view and make sense of the world.

Now, if you are going to tell me that maths is a superior or more evolved way to view the world and we must all be brought to view its wonders or forever be condemned to a lesser understanding! then we must agree to disagree :) And I say that as mother of a child who does see its wonders...

Poetry hasn't changed my life, it's deepened my life and allowed me to understand and express that understanding in a way I find exhilarating. I don't think someone who doesn't feel that same exhilaration for manipulating language is lacking, in the way I'm hearing expressed about those who are not exhilarated by maths.

Stella M
05-28-2011, 07:03 PM
Cranky now. Never diss a poet! :) You guys do know that it's really, really hard to write a great poem and takes a great deal of insight and intelligence and perseverance and logic and technique to do so and the end result is valuable to humanity ? As valuable as a mathematical proof or discovery ? And that you don't really conquer poetry and move on by 8th grade ? Tell me you know that...

You know, I have no problem with maths. What I have a problem with is privileging one form of knowledge over another. It's a slippery slope. Do I honestly believe a dancer is as valuable in what she brings to the world as a doctor ? Yep. Maths - great. Everything else - great too. Am I going to insist my people/dance/English girl study maths until she gets the wonder ? - No. Do I make my mapping/movement /number boy write poetry until he gets it ? No.

Some people don't find maths interesting. That's OK. It isn't a deficiency, just as being unable to compose a symphony isn't a deficiency. Our different passions and skills add up to a civilization. Take any of them away or treat one as more valuable as another and you chip away at civilization.

farrarwilliams
05-28-2011, 08:04 PM
Melissa, I think the comparison between poetry and math is very apt in many ways. In our society, both are things that, for whatever reason, are seen as things you just "get" or don't. There seems to be little understanding of the work involved in either. People often have the impression that "math people" can just absorb higher maths and that poets just write out a few lines off the tops of their heads. If you can't easily do calculus or write a sonnet on the first try, I think there's often a sense that it's okay because you'll never get it and therefore you can just give up. Which is sad for both math and poetry. There does seem to be a sense in this conversation that math is somehow superior, which I totally don't agree with - especially as a lens through which to view the world. Math does many things we need... but so do art, communication, philosophy, politics... all of which help build a world in which math can be ever more useful.

I really enjoy many aspects of math, but I don't think of myself as very "mathy." On the other hand, I feel like that's a choice I made at some point (or, perhaps, was made for me by a combination of environmental factors). And I do think people are made to feel intimidated by math, but that doesn't mean everyone who doesn't enjoy it much is just scared of it or somehow deficient in intellect.

Stella M
05-28-2011, 08:35 PM
There's also the issue of specialization. Unless you are a wealthy genius with a wife, perfect health, few responsibilities and a very long life, you are probably going to have to choose one or two areas of knowledge or competence to specialize in. We can't all specialize in maths!

Even in the homeschool, I don't think it's possible to specialize in every subject area. My aim is competence in all key learning areas combined with excellence in the areas of my children's self-determined interests and strengths. Some homeschools will put their resources primarily into maths, some into music, some into competitive sport or language or science or history or art or performance. I don't see a problem with that, as long as a child has the opportunity to develop as far as he or she wishes in his or her passion, combined with a broad competency in other areas.

I'm also not in the 'make it fun!' school of thought. Every child has an intrinsic motivation to find some aspect of education and learning fun. I don't need to make it fun. Some things aren't fun. Oh well, you do it till you are competent and have the skills to function in the world, then you can leave it behind... I absolutely do not believe that my middle dd's complete disinterest in maths could have been avoided if only I'd made it more 'fun.' Neither do I believe eldest dd's competence or ds's interest are a result of 'fun!' and mama modelling passion for maths.

Laina
05-28-2011, 08:38 PM
There does seem to be a sense in this conversation that math is somehow superior, which I totally don't agree with - especially as a lens through which to view the world.


This has been what is bothering me about this discussion too.

CatInTheSun
05-28-2011, 09:35 PM
Cranky now. Never diss a poet! :) You guys do know that it's really, really hard to write a great poem and takes a great deal of insight and intelligence and perseverance and logic and technique to do so and the end result is valuable to humanity ? As valuable as a mathematical proof or discovery ? And that you don't really conquer poetry and move on by 8th grade ? Tell me you know that...


Interestingly the only posts I've read that made reference to poetry being "easy or meaningless" is yours (arguing that it's not when no one said it was). The only reference to the superiority I saw was that it leads to more profitable career options, and um, yeah I think it is easier to have a career as an engineer, Dr, or scientist than it is to be a professional (consistently paid) poet. For that reason I admire those willing to take the less certain path.

I don't think a discussion about why math shouldn't seem so dreadful to many should be seen as a criticism of other skills. To be honest, I just don't have the patience to deal with it.

Stella M
05-28-2011, 10:07 PM
No, you implied that poetry did not involve a disciplined, logical language, or have rules governing it, as opposed to maths. You may not have meant to communicate that but you did. And it is an inaccurate characterisation of the subject.

Conversations do evolve, you know, to a broader discussion. This wasn't a discussion about careers. Only a fool would argue that poetry leads to better job opportunities than maths! If you have no patience for it, the discussion isn't compulsory.

dbmamaz
05-28-2011, 10:43 PM
Ok, but we read all the time about how american's math skills are lagging behind other developed nations. I saw an article about the most profitable college majors, and they were engineering and math and programming (a list of 10, most were engineering). There are a lot of doors which open if you get to calculus by the end of high school which do not open if you get to algebra 1 by the end of high school. And while I understand that not everyone has the inclination to be an engineer . . . i do often worry that the relaxed attitude towards math by homeschoolers can be a handicap.

Orion and I are studying poetry with MCT, and I'm in awe of the things he points out that are happening in a poem. I know I couldnt do that. And i also know that, in my own life, I have not spent enough time with the arts - i'm not naturally inclined that way and I've spent most of the last 12 years in crisis.

But . . . i really appreciated whoever said that math is the only required subject in her home. Math is not something which, despite that one article everyone loves to quote, can easily be picked up in the teen years . . . unless the student is EXTREMELY motivated. I really believe that, unless the child has a math disability and really cant understand numbers at all (and i'm not talking about memorizing math facts, I dont consider that math), they really should be firmly led to as high a math achievement as they can reach, to keep as many options open to them as possible. I dont think anything else except writing is as important.

feel free to tell me why i'm wrong. I think i'm ready for it!

Ariadne
05-28-2011, 11:06 PM
Successful artists make up their own rules after they have conquered the rules :) And to learn to view the world through metaphor, rhythm and image and to express it through those same techniques isn't as easy or meaningless as you might think! Poetry is a disciplined language that tries to uncover and express human truth through an internal and external logic. As someone who has spent many, many years studying it, writing it and editing it for others, I think I can safely reject the notion of poetry as undisciplined words vomited randomly across the page.So can I. :)


I didn't say 'same lens'. I said 'similar.' I said any lens performs the same function. You can use any type of knowledge to create meaning in your life. Maths, music, the written language, relationship with other, physical movement, scientific discovery...the list is endless.

Maths is important. This is why maths is the only compulsory subject in our homeschool But the world doesn't end if you don't love it and decide not to pursue it! despite being competent in the subject.

The OP said those who didn't love maths were scared of it. I say, no, in my experience, it is not a fear or a fault. There are many lenses through which we are drawn to see the world and each lens ( whilst obviously not leading to the same career paths ) is a valid one through which to view and make sense of the world.

Now, if you are going to tell me that maths is a superior or more evolved way to view the world and we must all be brought to view its wonders or forever be condemned to a lesser understanding! then we must agree to disagree :) And I say that as mother of a child who does see its wonders...

Poetry hasn't changed my life, it's deepened my life and allowed me to understand and express that understanding in a way I find exhilarating. I don't think someone who doesn't feel that same exhilaration for manipulating language is lacking, in the way I'm hearing expressed about those who are not exhilarated by maths.Thanks for taking the time to think that through and type it out. I enjoyed reading it.


Cranky now. Never diss a poet! :) You guys do know that it's really, really hard to write a great poem and takes a great deal of insight and intelligence and perseverance and logic and technique to do so and the end result is valuable to humanity ? As valuable as a mathematical proof or discovery ? And that you don't really conquer poetry and move on by 8th grade ? Tell me you know that...I don't remember dissing a poet...? I know it's hard to write good poetry. I do write it, and it's painfully hard to make it even remotely resemble something good.


You know, I have no problem with maths. What I have a problem with is privileging one form of knowledge over another. It's a slippery slope. Do I honestly believe a dancer is as valuable in what she brings to the world as a doctor ? Yep. Maths - great. Everything else - great too. Am I going to insist my people/dance/English girl study maths until she gets the wonder ? - No. Do I make my mapping/movement /number boy write poetry until he gets it ? No.

Some people don't find maths interesting. That's OK. It isn't a deficiency, just as being unable to compose a symphony isn't a deficiency. Our different passions and skills add up to a civilization. Take any of them away or treat one as more valuable as another and you chip away at civilization.We're in agreement.

Stella M
05-28-2011, 11:27 PM
Um, Cara ? That was me who said maths is the only compulsory subject in my homeschool, once reading is mastered, for the reasons you mention :) You're not wrong! Imo, you're absolutely right! It just doesn't need to fun, or the thing that makes their eyes light up...though if it does, that's very cool. Ds and I spend a lot of time marvelling at numbers. Never once in this conversation have I made the case that maths isn't important or that it can't also be fun and amazing for some. Personally, I don't see a negligent attitude to maths by homeschoolers. Most people seem to put a lot of thought into it.

Natalie...yes, it was just my little hissy fit :) I don't enjoy inaccuracy ( not referring to you), and to describe poetry as not needing or using a disciplined language with both an interior and external logic is just plain wrong. It is painfully hard to write anything remotely resembling good, and that's because you need a lot of higher order thinking to do it. MCT is only the beginning...

Now, the careers discussion is a completely different one and gets into the area of what our philosophical reasons and motivations are for homeschooling. I certainly see the discussion around women in maths/science is important and in the mass education context, even more so.

I still see little point in forcing a child into a particular area of study because it is more profitable or because that's what the country needs, or because you find it fascinating. Not that I'm saying anyone here does that! Just seems to me that way unhappiness lies.

I do feel most - not all - but most secular homeschoolers provide their children with enough exposure for a child not to miss out on following their area of interest through ignorance.

hockeymom
05-29-2011, 07:41 AM
LOL Corrigan! I'm one of those who definitely falls into the "math is sheer cruelty" camp (and no, I didn't get past algebra 1 in high school, despite the tutors, despite the extra time spent with my teachers and engineering dad, despite trying my very hardest yet spending 10 of my 12 years of schooling in tears over numbers--and despite acing most all other subjects), and was thus blessed with a child who loves math, loves science and is absolutely destined for an engineering career. Talk about seeing the world through a different lens, oh my.

I'll keep you in mind when I'm in tears over my son's grade 3 math equations! LOL :)

Dutchbabiesx2
05-29-2011, 12:41 PM
wow, seems 2 distinct camps. math lover and haters, with some living in between. I was a math hater until later year, now a math lover we we explore with with our kids, but we love love sciences, history and geography the best. Literature is not huge, we read books for learning and for pleasure, so literature is like eating, done for health and for pleasure.

I just find it amazing (at my kids ages and math skill levels thus far) how fun it actually is. I was asking my PS friends what their kids are doing in math and know that, for our household, our sons not only are doing higher level, but I feel are getting more real wold experiences to use those skills. It is the real world implementation that sets math skills apart. I note this not as a comparison to what PS kids are doing, but as a testament that we (our family) focuses on numbers and with that personalization, our sons can explore difficult concepts at young ages - as we we feel they are ready.

We have an excellent carpenter who has made some beautiful custom furniture we've designed. He spends a lot of time walking through the project, where my husband spent most of his time with paper and pencil, both systems worked. The carpenter had to live the equations, my husband had to do the equations (down to the 16th of an inch!).
So, as math lovers, we do not spend a lot of time at the library (mostly because we are usually late at returns!), but we do buy books at the 2nd hand book store, The beauty of HS, what we enjoy teaching will be taught more . . . .

and I think of the careers that excite us (hubby and I and even kids) . . most need to have a good handle on number manipulation and visual spatial skills, not that we would not support our kids were they to take a different direction, but I look at my generation( and hubby's) and our parent's generation and even our grandparents' generation and see that most choose professions that numbers where the basis of either the education or the career (hardly any artists or literacy professional) . . . strong nature and even stronger nurture involved here? Medical, Engineering, Chemistry, Architecture . . . the only non math people are part of the family from marriage!

Satori
05-29-2011, 02:21 PM
I love math, and get excited by calculus and physics. I love programming, video gaming, puzzles, etc...

I thought my daughter would follow, but she could care less about math. She never complains though.

Early this spring we switched to Singapore Primary Math and it sparked something in her. She's now excited about math! I don't think she'll ever be a total math genius, but it has made such a difference so far. The program has been working out fantastic for us. She says math is her most challenging subject, but also one of her favorites now.

Stella M
05-29-2011, 05:40 PM
Yes, well as far as the job thing goes, if ds stays on his mathy/engineering type path, dh and I will be soooo happy for him! Desiring to work in an area that pays! That people respect as a 'real job'! Of course, if he decides to do avant-garde Lego video installations at tiny artist-run galleries, we'd also support him. It would just be fun for someone in the family to have a non-art vocation and make some money!

I think it's true that what we enjoy we teach more of; I'd also say that what our children love we teach more of as well, and that seems fine to me, as long as the other subjects are taught to a competency level.

Educating ds is an eye opener for me; my girls are strictly humanities girls, but with ds, I get to explore things I had no interest in previously - programming, maps, design, numbers. Diversity, isn't it great ?

Corrigan and hockeymom, the universe always mocks! Except for me, it only mocked 2 times out of 3 - dd13 is like me, only better! The other two ? Challenge the whole way...

Stella M
05-29-2011, 10:28 PM
I have a peace making link for us all :)
http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/lessons/1415/

farrarwilliams
05-29-2011, 11:13 PM
Ooh, that's cool, Melissa.

I love things like that where two things that don't seem connected are. Like math and crochet and coral reefs (http://crochetcoralreef.org/).

belacqua
05-29-2011, 11:21 PM
Maybe Edna (http://www.dcs.wisc.edu/lsa/indlearn/courses/math/resources/millay.html) can help with the peace process, too.

Ariadne
05-29-2011, 11:22 PM
I love things like that where two things that don't seem connected are. Like math and crochet and coral reefs (http://crochetcoralreef.org/).Don't hate me but I never would have NOT seen the connection between math and crochet and coral reefs. http://miprogressivehomeschoolers.org/Smileys/default/icon_smile_blush.gif

Like I've said, I see math everywhere. And I love examining connections like this because they're fun! They just don't surprise me.

Stella M
05-30-2011, 12:10 AM
I would never hate you for being smarter than me! I'd only hate you if you kept reminding me...:)

For all of us who have failed to integrate poetry and crochet into our children's education, here is a link for you! http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/sewing-knitting-crocheting

Poetry and maths blog: http://poetrywithmathematics.blogspot.com

Stella M
05-30-2011, 07:41 AM
So anyway, maths is the theme for the week, because I was lying in bed listening to the radio when a maths professor came on to talk about the maths crisis in our country...did you know that when they image the brains of someone doing maths and someone writing creatively, the same area in the brain lights up ?

Ariadne
05-30-2011, 06:11 PM
I would never hate you for being smarter than me! I'd only hate you if you kept reminding me...:)Oh, Melissa. That's where you misunderstand me. I don't think I'm smarter simply because I like math. Did I say something that gave you that impression? Or are you kind of sensitive that direction?

I have my own insecurities. We all have them. I only made that comment to point out an example of how we view the world differently because of different bents.


For all of us who have failed to integrate poetry and crochet into our children's education, here is a link for you! http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/sewing-knitting-crocheting

Poetry and maths blog: http://poetrywithmathematics.blogspot.comThanks for the links. :-)

Stella M
05-30-2011, 06:15 PM
Sensitive ? No...besides, if you can see the joy of maths and write poetry, you probably are smarter than me! No problem :)

Ariadne
05-30-2011, 06:21 PM
Sensitive ? No...besides, if you can see the joy of maths and write poetry, you probably are smarter than me! No problem :)I occasionally write bad poetry for my own amusement and emotional catharsis.

Stella M
05-30-2011, 06:28 PM
Doesn't matter; that spot in your brain has a double glow :)

Ariadne
05-30-2011, 07:13 PM
Doesn't matter; that spot in your brain has a double glow :)Oh I'm sure something is glowing up there alright. I just figured it was signs of Weird.

dbmamaz
05-30-2011, 07:49 PM
I mostly quit writing poetry once I saw the term 'highschool angst poetry' and felt like I had a neon sign above my head saying "She wrote highschool angst poetry, how TACKY!" But its funny, when I started my blog, a few months in to it, I woke up and wrote a poem. And put it in the blog. I think just the discipline of writing (nearly) daily really re-awoke that part of my brain. But i drifted away from it again. as i mentioned in the blogging thread. sigh.

Ariadne
05-30-2011, 09:44 PM
^^ Hasn't everyone written teenage angst poetry? :D

dbmamaz
05-30-2011, 10:15 PM
^^ Hasn't everyone written teenage angst poetry? :D
Probably, but I was just THAT self-concious. Like every time they mentioned acne in health class, I was sure everyone was thinking about me. I'm sorta better now . . . i just avoid ppl so I dont have to worry what they think, and i dont believe anything they say about me, so it doesnt matter.

Stella M
05-31-2011, 06:51 PM
I wrote teenage angst prose, which is what allowed me to go on to writing adequate poetry with a clean slate. Burned the prose though...

Stella M
06-03-2011, 05:35 AM
I just want to mention that the best part of my day today wasn't book club, although that went pretty well...

The best part of my day was when dd13 got stuck with her maths and when I went to help her I got stuck too. And I said to her "Honey, maybe this is the bit where I get you a tutor." Sadly. It really bugged me that I couldn't get it, so I kept puzzling away and suddenly! all became clear and I could do it and I could explain it to dd and she could understand! Very buzzy. I kind of want to go and do more...for fun...
It may be that I am a maths convert.

And no, I'm not telling you what it was we were stuck on, because you maths people would roll your eyes at how basic it was :)

dbmamaz
06-03-2011, 09:44 AM
Melissa, I will admit something dumb I did in math this week. We were working on time, distance, rate. There was a 'thinking' problem where a sports car left singapore (yeah, well) at 110 km/h and a bus left the other town at 55 km/h - when they meet, which one is further from Singapore. I said something, my son said something, and I said yes, the sports car is going faster, so its gone further. My son looked at me for a sec . . . obviously thinking . . and said, "No, they are the same distance - they are in the same place!" I just totally cracked up that I had missed that. They MET - they are in the SAME PLACE! But I think its great when Orion gets a chance to understand something I missed, after all the time I have to spend breaking things down for him. Converting m/s to km/h was KILLING him yesterday. 1 problem too over half an hour.

Dutchbabiesx2
06-03-2011, 12:29 PM
And no, I'm not telling you what it was we were stuck on, because you maths people would roll your eyes at how basic it was :)

We are happy with your successes!!!! don't worry I will be there too some day . .

apenney
06-09-2011, 12:18 PM
While I'm actually very bad at math (due to having the love for maths stamped out of me in school) I absolutely love it and the way in which it can explain so much of the natural world around us. I noticed a few of the non-math people here definitely had a lousy time with being taught it (just like I was, any attempt to be creative with math was punished at school) and it reminded me of a famous little essay, A Mathematicians Lament (http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf), which discusses what ps does so terribly wrong.

I thought it might be an interesting read for anyone who hasn't heard of it before!

Ellie's mom
07-12-2011, 05:18 AM
Thanks for the link!

I don't hate math and DH has a degree but DD might rather a trip to the dentist...

Hoping that finding the right book/curriculum might inspire her. Doing calculations are dull, granted, but what about just walking thru some really challenging stuff?
I had her divide 100 by 3 just to see the look on her face when she encountered her first irrational number... that certainly made long division less dull!

Susanna
07-19-2011, 01:53 AM
Me! Me! Me! Science and Math geek here. We use Math U See (DS is 6) by the way and love it, plus a variety of other things like tangrams, a series of books with mathematical concepts in them (and activities to go with them) - the name escapes me at the moment- and we use Real Science 4 kids mainly plus a lot of Janice Van Cleave books and read a lot (DS's current favorite is a book about all things gross, it tells what boogers are made of and why we fart etc. Lovely.) At any given time we have 1-5 experiments going on (currently crystal growing and tadpole/frog raising,weather charting). I also have him make bar/pie charts (foot size in family, favorite ice cream flavors - and have him call up extended family members to poll them etc.) and just do random geeky things I guess, lol. We were talking about how a cm relates to an inch the other day and he decided to make some comparison measurements - while I would have chosen the table maybe, he chose the cat. (Helps that the cat is a fat, lazy animal with the personality of a stoner. Our biggest difficulty was making him stand long enough to take measurements, as he was tired and late for his mid-morning nap and acting as if he were boneless. We got his length, height and embarrassingly large & jello-like girth all charted.)
Both DH and I have engineering degrees & I also have a degree in math, so no surprise here that we're geeks...

Susanna
07-19-2011, 01:55 AM
[QUOTE=Busygoddess;40182]Personally, my dislike of Math stems from the fact that it is about as interesting as watching grass grow. It is a painfully boring subject."

Aahhhhh, like a dagger to my heart!!!
Susanna (have an engineering degree & math degree)

Susanna
07-19-2011, 02:06 AM
[QUOTE=Corrigan;40795]I am not interested in doing crafts. I hate them. I don't want to scrapbook. I don't want to make wreaths. I don't even want to spend hours at Christmastime perfectly wrapping gifts and topping them with gorgeous, handmade bows. I hate crafts so much I have trouble understanding why anyone would want to waste...er, pass (wink, wink - you guys know I'm kidding)...their time doing things like that. Blech.

Omg, I thought I was a horrible hs'ing mother because I feel this way! I'm so glad not to be alone! I have no problem destroying the kitchen with a chemistry experiment but just the very idea of paper mache' makes me just not want to get out of bed. Here it is, my HS mom confession: I *loathe* doing crafts. I do them because I think it's an integral part of the curriculum for a 6 y.o. But I don't have to like them. And I will not do paper mache' - one of the crafty moms at co-op can take that one and run with it... I fantasize about having a t-shirt that says "F**k paper mache'". (based on the old "F**k yoga" t-shirts.) Hopefully this offends no one. If it does, I'm sorry, it's late and I've become inexcusably profane. Sometimes I think the unspoken 4 letter words build up in my head during the day, only to burst forth after midnight in a bizarre & filthy release of tensions, kind of like a mommy tourette's syndrome that correlates exactly to the number of times I've said "no hitting" today. Going to bed now. Again, sorry if this offended anyone.

Stella M
07-19-2011, 02:19 AM
You know, if you don't like craft, I think you could easily not do anything more challenging than keeping a craft box and letting your child be free range with it. And just do something else less messy for fine motor skills. Lego is neat.

Susanna
07-19-2011, 02:40 PM
Ugh, but my dd would just die if we never did any crafts together. She likes them, as long as they're quick and easy - no extended 10 hour projects that take a few days to complete or anything. If left to her own devices, she doesn't really do crafts at all. I think she can't think of anything she'd like to do, even though I have 3 or 4 books of ideas she could implement, if she really tried. She's easily frustrated, though, and needs a little help with things.

Mine's the same as yours - no real direction/interest with a box of mixed items (I tried so hard!) he prefers a specific project with directions and specific steps. So I'll continue to do them... but with a nice healthy balance of science messes too! lol