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ginnyjf
03-29-2010, 11:20 AM
Gee, we're not even homeschooling yet and I'm already posting in "Family Issues." Fun! This may be long...

Zack currently attends a Catholic elementary school. We're withdrawing him from the school for many reasons, not just because we plan to homeschool; however, we have many good friends at the school so we're keeping our reasons for leaving to ourselves. We don't see any need to cause hard feelings if we don't have to, you know?

The school is a very small school in a small parish, where everyone knows each others' business, and the rumor mill has already started turning. In the last week or so, I've been pulled aside four different times by four different staff members for a liberal application of Catholic guilt: "I've heard you're going to homeschool next year. You do know that the second grade is one of the most important sacramental years for a Catholic child, don't you? You really wouldn't want him to miss out on proper catechism instructions during such an important time, would you? He is so well-liked! Are you sure you want to take him away from all of that? I know you'll make the right decision in the end....etc." It honestly has me second-guessing myself and I feel so torn right now.

My husband is a cradle Catholic, my SIL teaches at a Catholic elementary school and my MIL is an old-fashioned, very strict Catholic. I joined the church in 1992, but quickly grew disenchanted with it. I won't go into the details. I no longer consider myself a practicing Catholic. Raising our son in the Catholic faith is very important to my husband and to my MIL and I adore them both, so I had no problem with sending him to a Catholic school. But he's such a sensitive soul and he takes what he is taught so seriously and he's getting some very strict, and in my mind, absolutely incorrect ideas about heaven and hell and salvation. He had a nightmare the other night because of all the gory Crucifixion pictures he's been exposed to lately.

My dilemma is that I'm not so sure I want to raise him in the Catholic faith any longer. The poor guy has "church syncope" which means he gets ill and faints in every mass. His first reconciliation and first communion will be utter hell for him and I dread the thought of it. I've tentatively agreed to have him attend public school religion classes once a week, but now I'm wavering. If he's going to study religion, I'd like to be the one who teaches him, because I know what he can handle and what will upset him. I want him to learn about other faiths and other world views because he's convinced that anyone who isn't a Catholic is doomed. Seven is too young for such a narrow POV. I'll also admit, without getting too controversial, that the current problems in the church frighten me.

I'm not sure how I'm going to tell my MIL and SIL, whom I get along brilliantly with, that not only are we homeschooling but we're not planning on using a Catholic curriculum. I'm not sure how to broach the subject of PSR with my husband. I'd love to have Zack stay involved with his Boy Scout troop, but we have to be affiliated with the parish in order for that to happen. And here I thought my biggest hurdle would be finding the right curriculum. *weak laugh*

Snoopy
03-29-2010, 12:30 PM
Wow, Ginny! Issues like these make me even happier to be an atheist living a continent away from my once-Catholic-now-Jehovah's Witness-mother, whom I love dearly. The only people you should concern yourself with, IMO, are your child and your husband, because he is Zack's dad. In my eyes that gives him an equal voice in Zack's education. But everyone else, although they would like to have a say in how Zack is raised, just doesn't.

I think that you should approach your husband with your misgivings and give him a chance to devise a plan with you regarding how you will expose Zack to the Catholic religion. Could he perhaps attend cathechism at a different parish if your husband was bent on him attending? A child shouldn't have such a strong reaction to what is being presented to him, that's just not healthy. Maybe your husband would be satisfied with your child being taught religion at home and would be willing to run interference with HIS family. Or maybe not, but that's something that you need to find out from him before you discuss it with anyone else. Just my 2 cents. My husband is a believer and I'm atheist. While he doesn't attend church (or even belong to any religion per se, that I know of!), he would be very upset if I didn't discuss religion at home with Noah. I also agree that teaching about religion is important (and especially the Christian religions) since we live in a judeo-christian world and the heritage is so prevalent. We use Story of the World as our history curriculum and it explains the world religions but not so much in detail that it feels like endoctrination. That and saying the pledge of allegiance without skipping the "god" part is enough for my husband (well, I skip it, but Noah doesn't). I make sure to explain my POV as well when we discuss religious matters. I do want him to make that decision for himself as to whether to believe or not. I don't really care, as I think everyone should make that decision for themselves and leave the others the heck alone :) My MIL is religious and we get along great and she doesn't berate me for not being as well, although she does send me occasional messages that I have to warn her off about, lol.

Can you see if there is another Scout troop in the area that Zack could join that doesn't require you to have him in the Catholic church? And when you say "affiliated with the parish", if he still attended that church but didn't go to school, wouldn't he still be affiliated with the parish? Just wondering.

Anyhow, I'm sorry I'm not so much help. It's a fine line to teach your child about a religion wanting him to believe in it, perhaps, but also telling him that a lot of it is B.S. and exaggerated (like in the movies) and that he shouldn't take that so much to heart. I think that your approach with that greatly depends on what you want to teach him and what you would like him to believe. I tell Noah that "some people believe that xx will happen if you do xx" and then I append it with "but I don't believe this happens." That's the approach that works for ME. Yours, understandably, will be different. Quite frankly, at this point, I would be more worried about his well-being on Earth right now (i.e. not having nightmares and fainting in mass) than a hypothetical well-being in the after-life (i.e. going to Hell because he didn't do catechism in the 2nd grade). Just my 2 cents.

(((HUGS)))

(disclosure: I was raised Catholic in a Catholic family and decided that I was atheist when I was about 10 years-old, before my 1st communion. I "came out" to my mom right after it and we had a huge fight about it but I dug my heels in and she was smart enough to leave it alone... and now she's not even Catholic anymore anyway, lol.)

CroppinMom
03-29-2010, 07:09 PM
ginny,

I'm so sorry that you've had to deal with all of this before you've even gotten started! I guess the upside is that once you get past this it should be smooth sailing!

I agree with Nathalie in that there are only 3 people who should have any say in how you educate your son - you, your husband, and Zack. As parents it is our main job to do what is best for our kids - unfortunately, most of the time that is NOT the easy thing. It sounds like his current education situation is not in his best interests and you are doing your best to fix that. I also agree that it is time for a serious heart to heart with your hubby. Maybe he has some ideas that you haven't considered yet.

dbmamaz
03-29-2010, 09:59 PM
Wow, that does sound really stressful! I mean, the stress on your poor boy, too, thats just dreadful. But what on earth is public school religion class? Is that like extended sunday school for kids who go to public school?

I think at that age you can have honest discussions with your child about what you think about these things - that different people believe different things. Be sure to expose him to other points of view to balance it out, and make sure he understands catholicisim and why its so important to his father's family, but also that its not right for everyone, its not (um?) the only true religion. (i guess that IS what catholic means, isnt it?)

camaro
03-30-2010, 10:02 AM
A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away I attended a public school that had a religion class named Christian Ethics. This was in a town with a strong French-Canadian Catholic population. The class was optional but most of us took it anyway. I was in Grade 8 at the time, in 1984.

dbmamaz
03-30-2010, 10:15 AM
My husband, who was raised french-canadian catholic, seems to still be traumatized by his upbringing, but he wont talk about it much. When we were at a crisis in our marriage, tho, he told me he thought he would go to hell for what he was doing to me and the kids (leaving, but he did come back). I asked how he could believe in hell if he didnt believe in god, and he said that was what the catholic church did to him - its all about the guilt

ginnyjf
03-30-2010, 10:51 AM
Thanks everyone, for your thoughtful responses and especially for the sympathy. Nathalie and Kim, I agree completely that there are only three people to consider when it comes to our decision to home school Zack. Zack and I are both prepared and eager to begin and Russ is very enthusiastic about the idea as well. I think some of the increased pressure from the staff members at the school is because it's holy week and it's also nearing time for first communion, so emotions and sentimentality are high. I'm dealing with it by not dealing with it. I drop Zack off at school and run back home before anyone can talk to me. :)

I know I need to sit down and have a talk with Russ about my reservations toward PSR and first communion and everything else, but wow, that's going to be a difficult conversation. Russ is very open-minded and reasonable and you're right; he may have some ideas I haven't considered. I'm definitely not in this alone. I believe Zack should be involved as well. We discuss religion and Zack is very open with me and I think I've been able to counter some of his erroneous ideas. (Here's an example: Zack told me that showing someone the middle finger means you want that person to die and that you're going to hell. I countered with my belief that it's not the middle finger that is "bad," it's the emotions behind the gesture. Then we practiced giving each other the middle finger so I could show him that the gesture has no power without the negative emotions behind it. I don't know what our sweet little old neighbor must have thought, watching us flipping each other off in the driveway. And Zack was scared to death at first, then he started to giggle and I could see his whole body relax once he realized that giving someone the finger didn't mean instant condemnation. *facepalm*)

I'm not very religious, but I want Zack to have enough information to make his own decision about what he believes and I don't want him indoctrinated in the Catholic church just yet. If he chooses it freely when he's older, I'll support him all the way, but he's so young and still learning.

Thanks again everyone. Didn't mean to drag a religious discussion into a secular board, but the support means a lot to me!

Snoopy
03-30-2010, 12:27 PM
I was in Grade 8 at the time, in 1984.

David, you're showing your age.... and you're YOUNGER than me, booo-hoo-hoo. I was in 11th grade in 1984. And yes, it feels like it was a looong time ago and yet just yesterday at the same time. At the Mall this weekend there were pictures of girls wearing the same clothes I used to wear in the 1980s. And here we thought that in the 2000s we'd all be wearing catsuits and flying around on flying saucers... lol.

Snoopy
03-30-2010, 12:30 PM
Then we practiced giving each other the middle finger so I could show him that the gesture has no power without the negative emotions behind it.

LOL, awesome!

Topsy
03-30-2010, 12:55 PM
Hope you don't mind, Ginny, but I'm going to promote this thread to an article on the home page. What an interesting discussion and beautifully thought-out responses. I think others will benefit from this conversation!!

Topsy

ginnyjf
03-30-2010, 03:32 PM
That's great, Topsy! I hope other people can benefit.

CroppinMom
03-30-2010, 06:21 PM
We discuss religion and Zack is very open with me and I think I've been able to counter some of his erroneous ideas. (Here's an example: Zack told me that showing someone the middle finger means you want that person to die and that you're going to hell. I countered with my belief that it's not the middle finger that is "bad," it's the emotions behind the gesture. Then we practiced giving each other the middle finger so I could show him that the gesture has no power without the negative emotions behind it. I don't know what our sweet little old neighbor must have thought, watching us flipping each other off in the driveway. And Zack was scared to death at first, then he started to giggle and I could see his whole body relax once he realized that giving someone the finger didn't mean instant condemnation. *facepalm*)

Ginny,

This right here says so much about your son and his relationship with his parents. In my opinion, that will go far in helping everyone get through this rough patch ok. It sounds like you really have a good handle on the whole frustrating situation.

btw - The mental image of you two flipping each other off is fabulous!!!

Shoe
04-04-2010, 06:48 PM
David, you're showing your age.... and you're YOUNGER than me, booo-hoo-hoo. I was in 11th grade in 1984. And yes, it feels like it was a looong time ago and yet just yesterday at the same time. Snoopy, you must be the same age as me then-I was in grade 11 in 1984 as well. I share your sentiments that it seems so long ago and so recent. Life's like that.

Ginnyjf, sorry to hear about your issues with this whole thing. It sounds like you're going to have a tough time any way you look at at it. If he stays in the Catholic school, he's going to be traumatized...if not, you're going to be traumatized. In the end, though, you need to do what your husband and yourself decide is right for your child-the other people trying to make these decisions shouldn't really have much say in it. Good luck with your tough decision-sorry I don't have any great answers for you.

Cheers.

mjzzyzoff
04-06-2010, 09:08 PM
This might be the first thread I've read on here but it hits close to home! We are pulling our 8 yr. old out of Catholic school and planning to homeschool next year. I am not nor is my husband Catholic. I mostly identify myself as a Christian Agnostic and my husband is somewhat of an Atheist (although I'm not exactly sure if that's even what you'd call it, he's odd).

My son originally went into the Catholic school system because it seemed to be the best educational option at the time. Recently it seems to have gotten much more stressful and we desire more family time and less spent on transportation and homework, hence our decision.

So, we are not dealing so much with faith based schooling and family, just being considered "radical fringe homeschoolers" by family. My SIL is not a fan and expresses that to us at every opportunity. Now my husband's hoping I will be able to "talk to her" and somehow magically get her to understand all our reasons.

I finally called my mother tonight (who supports us fully) to ask for advice on how to talk to my SIL and she told me, very simply, "acknowledge her points, and thank her for her input. Other than that there's nothing else you need to do." Whew! What a relief! I kept getting hung up on what I could say but the reality is, like so many others have expressed, it is not her decision. The biggest part for me was realizing it's also not my job to change her opinion, nor even defend mine. I kept getting hung up on the defensive part.

Back to the Catholic aspect, my son will remain in the cub scout troop from his original school. My mother is very involved there (she, too, is not Catholic, so perhaps we don't have the same rumor mill generating because of that.) It is a truly wonderful group and I don't find the brief prayers to be too "indoctrinating" (for lack of a better word). We have also been sure to talk with our son about other religious beliefs and plan to teach some comparative religion type classes in our homeschool. I think that will give him the freedom of choice he needs to find if and what when it comes to his personal beliefs.

Other than that, we are excited and hopeful that this coming year will bring wonderful new adventures! I hope it is the same with you, and have faith (in whatever or whomever you need to) that things will work out.

Museling
04-07-2010, 11:37 AM
Speaking as someone who is about to make the plunge, while not religiously based -we're dealing with people who view the differences of public school vs. home school almost religiously. Going against public school is like going against the church. And I guess in a way, when you're not making the decision for any outstanding or overt reasoning, it's hard for people to get that your persuasion is as strong as if you had a life altering experience that made you go against the indoctrinations of the establishment. (dear me, I hope that made sense -I read it a second time in my head and it did but forgive me if it doesn't, coffee is not helping my depressed mood: blog explains it best)

I've realized the hardest part is getting over the want to explain yourself and reason with people in hopes they will understand and permit your adventures. For example: last night I allowed myself to be persuaded by a very good friend who, while very respectful, is very adamantly against the idea. She wants me to subject my lesson plan to her husband teacher who's been quoted with this little judgmental gem, "there isn't a degree among these people" when talking about friends and their educations. Thankfully, he works for a different ISD and since I've already agreed (because my proud curiosity has me perked) I've already reloaded my defense because even if he thinks it's utter crap, he can't judge mine against the teachers in our school district- which is the true 'test' to how my lesson plan measures up. And my final defense -if being a teacher automatically means this ability, why are so many students across the nation failing? Nobody is going to care for Logan's education more than his family. So yeah, it's pointless of what I'm doing but again, I just really want to see how I'll measure up because this English teacher can't even beat me at scrabble. ;)

I think to a certain degree, maybe because previously public schooled parents are the majority who are diving in so, in a sense, we're disowning the hand that taught us and that is a little unnerving, despite the parental drive to do the absolute best for your child, there is a little voice that makes you doubt yourself but you need to use that voice as a tool to empower you, not to cripple or thwart your intentions. Your intentions are to the best for your child and nobody can understand that more than yourself.

ginnyjf
04-07-2010, 11:47 AM
Hey Mjzzyzoff, thank you so much for chiming in on my post! Our situations sound very, very similar, including the Cub Scout troop. Zack will also turn 8 in June. Your mother gave you some great advice and I'm going to remember it. I've spent too much time trying to justify what is a very personal decision and frankly, no one else's business! :) Tell your mom thanks for me. I'm also planning on covering comparative religion with Zack and I've already stressed that many other people in the world have different beliefs and it does not make them "wrong," it makes them "different" and that's all. So, welcome! And hopefully we can compare notes through our first year together!

ginnyjf
04-07-2010, 11:50 AM
Thanks so much...shoe? Can I really call you Shoe? Totally off topic but I remember my college art professor actually spelled his last name SHOEmaker, with the capital letters and all. That was a random memory!

Anyway, I appreciate the kind words. At this point, I would rather go through the turmoil than have Zack go through it. He's very excited about the idea of homeschooling and is keeping a list of subjects he wants to study. It seems when we first made the decision to homeschool I cared very deeply what other people thought...now, not so much. I'm improving. I have a meeting with the school principal on Monday, so I may be singing a different tune then. Wish me luck!

ginnyjf
04-07-2010, 12:02 PM
Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Denise! I'll admit that I'm not too concerned about whether or not my teaching skills will be up to snuff. Zack's current classroom teacher spends most of her day blowing a whistle and trying to rein in 14 rambunctious kids, so at this point I think I could teach circles around her, professional degree or not. :) We already do a lot of "unofficial" study at home whenever a topic catches Zack's interest, so we're both pretty well-versed in researching topics that we don't know about. I don't have a problem with saying, "I have no idea, but let's look it up!"

I have some good friends who are teachers and I'm getting used to the pats on the head and their assurances of "Oh, it will be okay! I know some homeschooled kids who did very well!" They might as well say, "Oh, it will be okay! You probably won't turn your kid into a socially-inept moron!" *rolls eyes*

Once we get past this all-important sacramental year, then it won't be such an issue. I'm going to make sure Zack participates in his first communion because, bottom line, it will be easier to peel him off the floor of the church a few times than to listen to years of moaning from my husband's side of the family. Then when we're past that, it's up to Zack if he wants to continue.

Shoe
04-07-2010, 12:07 PM
ginnyjf,

"Shoe" was my nickname in elementary school, is phonetically similar to part of my last name, and fits in with my love of running and hiking-so yes, you can really call me Shoe.

I'm curious about your meeting the school principal on Monday-is this a state mandated meeting for homeschoolers, a courtesy meeting, or other? New Hampshire requires us to notify either the local school district or the principal of a private school willing to act as a "participating agency" within 5 days of withdrawing a child from the school to start homeschooling, but I've heard some states don't require any kind of official notification. I decided to use a private school....it seemed there might be less of a potential conflict of interest than with the school from which we were withdrawing my son...though I did send his old school a courtesy letter telling them of withdrawal-and let them know that I was officially and legally using a different participating agent. At any rate, good luck with the meeting-I hope all goes well.

(The "participating agency" in New Hampshire accepts and acknowledges receipt of the notification to homeschool and the results of the annual evaluation process)

ginnyjf
04-07-2010, 12:55 PM
Missouri is a pretty laid-back state when it comes to homeschooling. It's recommended that a potential homeschooler notify their local district and file a letter of intent with the Recorder of Deeds within 30 days of beginning homeschooling, but it's not a requirement. I have done both, just to avoid any unnecessary investigation under the compulsory attendance provision. We're also required to maintain a daily log but it is not subject to any kind of review. The meeting with the school principal is a courtesy meeting only. I had meant to speak with him at the end of the school year before class assignments were made for 2010-2011, but the rumor mill started churning long before that happened, so I just want to let him know "Yes, we're doing this. No, we're not changing our minds."

Shoe
04-07-2010, 01:05 PM
Well, that's good then-it takes a bit of pressure off that kind of meeting when the principal has no authority over your decisions or how they're implemented. Not that that helps the potential awkwardness. Good luck.

Snoopy
04-07-2010, 07:30 PM
She wants me to subject my lesson plan to her husband teacher who's been quoted with this little judgmental gem, "there isn't a degree among these people" when talking about friends and their educations. Thankfully, he works for a different ISD and since I've already agreed (because my proud curiosity has me perked) I've already reloaded my defense because even if he thinks it's utter crap, he can't judge mine against the teachers in our school district- which is the true 'test' to how my lesson plan measures up. And my final defense -if being a teacher automatically means this ability, why are so many students across the nation failing? Nobody is going to care for Logan's education more than his family. So yeah, it's pointless of what I'm doing but again, I just really want to see how I'll measure up because this English teacher can't even beat me at scrabble. ;)


Hold me back, people, there's a certain p.s. teacher in TX who certainly needs his sanctimonious and (you said it perfectly) judgmental butt kicked! Can I be the 1st one? OK, the 2nd one right after Denise? Arrgh. Just because someone has a piece of paper attesting to the fact that they spent x number of hours in a "higher learning" institution certainly doesn't give them the right to judge other people's ability to impart knowledge!! Of all the pompous things I have heard.... You know, you hear a lot about doctors' god complex, but I would say that some teachers come pretty close it it too. How dare he summon you like a vassal to submit your plans for HIS approval? I really wish you hadn't indulged your friend, Denise. You do realize that there is no chance in hell that he'll give you the seal of approval, right? You're threatening his very existence! From his first defensive reaction, you can already see that this is not a person who has an open mind. Even if he does approve of your lesson plan, it's YOU teaching your own child that he disapproves of. No lesson plan is going to convince him, no matter how impressive. His comment to his wife (if not to your face) will probably be something along the lines of "and how does SHE expect to be able to teach him this? She doesn't even have a college degree?!"

Good luck with all this. I don't mean to add to your stress, but a really good friend of mine just had to face this type of remark from another homeschooling mom, actually, so we've been talking about this very issue a lot and this just reignited some smoldering passion in me! I'm glad you beat him at Scrabble.

Yarngoddess
04-09-2010, 07:25 AM
Museling-
Wow. I have been following the posts you've had here and I'm excited to see how this journey of Homeschooling takes you. I am confused though. WHY would you allow your friend who is against the idea of homeschooling to 1) have a say in how you educate you son and 2) ever consider or allow her husband access to your curriculum? Every homeschooler I know changes their educational curriculum a few times until they find what system works for their kids. I don't see what you hope to gain in this experiment- his understanding? her support? Seems to me like they have already made up their minds, and have no intention of supporting this decision you've made for your family. Even though you are very clearly driven to educate your son to the best of your ability (and degree does NOT mean ability or knowledge).

It's NEVER easy for the "general" public to accept someone that "sticks out" or "breaks the mold" and most people have very strong reactions about this. They are either very angry that we are breaking the cycle, or very supportive. It seems to me that this friend and her husband have already decided to be negative forces as far as education is concerned- unless you subject your son to public school again. I am curious why you allow anyone this much opinion into your life- first your BIL and now the friends.

In My Opinion- you are making a great decision and one that you do not take lightly. I do hope that you stop allowing other people this much opinion into your lives. Homeschool (in most cases) is a totally different kind of education- and kids that have been in public school of some sort have an adjustment period, or DeSchooling that must take place before they can continue with homeschool education. I just hope that you aren't setting too many limits (trial period of time) (pre-designated curriculum) (allowing so much outside influences) that will hurt your success at homeschooling. Not to be mean or negative, just something I see hapening and hope to help.

Museling
04-09-2010, 02:42 PM
Snoopy: oh I could hug you! What you said is exactly what was going on in my mind, but I need to clarify and update some stuff. I finally got to talk to my friend's teacher husband (calling her friend A)and he is actually much more supportive of this than originally perceived. I think now that his wife was imparting her own perceptions onto what he actually felt. For one, in our group of friends, I have another friend (friend B) who is going to begin homeschooling as well but for completely different reasons (special needs, family trauma) and is going to be taking a completely different approach, at least starting off, than I am (unschooling/eclectic whereas I am classical/eclectic). I believe that friend A thinks a good majority of my drive is to follow friend B -she did make a comment in regards to how she hopes that friend B isn't influencing my decision. But, jumping back, when I got to talk to him and told him about what I'm going to be using, what my plans are, he was really on board, giving me well wishes and hope that this does work out for us -which I've learned is a good response from non-homeschoolers. So, the wife is more of the culprit in this and I'm just not going to bring it up to her anymore. If she brings it up, I'll tell her this is a sore subject -just like the argument we got into about feeding soy milk to her baby- so lets just drop it and just as I trust your parenting abilities, I ask you trust mine. So all in all, I was pleasantly surprised with the conversation and thankful for his support (which also included access to materials that he has if I should ever want to test Logan or gain more resources for him) and also his well wishes.

I am a lot stronger than I think I make myself out. Since embarking on this journey almost 3 weeks ago, the three of us have come so far. I do like listening to the voice of opposition because every now and again, I gain a perspective that may help me solve a problem -just as it does listening to the voice of agreement. Getting both sides has really helped me feel empowered and each day I become more and more assured. Also, I let these people in because they are a part of my life and I don't want to lose that either. Yeah, it pisses me off to no end when I'm misunderstood, but I know that I've been guilty of the exact same behavior (just as with friend A and the soy milk). I want to teach Logan to have that respect for a different opinion, kind of like how this blog (http://loganland-adventures.blogspot.com/2010/04/day-seven-believe-those-who-are-seeking.html) post I wrote yesterday shows our perspective on religion. This whole experience has created a whole new bond between the three of us that no opinion can permeate and if anything, has called me to battle to ensure that I give my son the best that I can -something I think I lost when he started school. No amount of, give the new school a try or stop following friend b or you're not qualified can dissuade me from this pursuit -even if one day it leads us back to public school. I'm not going to put my son's education and future to the side ever again.

On a side note too, I know that karma is about to bite BIL in the rear for being so insulting. Logan's future music teacher and my best friend and Logan's unofficial uncle, Mr Music, is also a friend of BIL and will not let BIL get away with this. (This isn't the first time that BIL has stuck his foot in his mouth)