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VickieB
02-04-2015, 03:33 PM
I know the vaccination issue can be highly charged. I am not trying to start any sort of debate, just sharing a resource should anyone be interested.

I got an email that has resources covering measles, vaccinations and viruses.

http://us5.campaign-archive1.com/?u=3c8034ebf5d74492b5c8ef8c9&id=205bd946c0&e=9ab7530882 ([email protected]?subject=Your%20order%20from%20 BabyHopes.com%20%20Invoice%2099266)

CrazyMom
02-04-2015, 07:09 PM
Ah Measles. Nasty little bug. You get it by breathing. That's all you have to do. Breath in the same room as someone who is infected. An infected person can spread the virus for four days before they even know they're infected...they usually just think they have the start of a cold.

Most people who get Measles survive it, (with complications like pneumonia and hearing loss...and other lovely stuff).... but one in 500 or so...gets Measles Encephalitis.

Measles Encephalitis kills so rapidly, it's nearly impossible to diagnose it before it's too late for survival. A very aggressive, brutal illness.

Another nasty wildcard...is SSPE, a fatal central nervous illness that pops up 10 years after a case of measles.

And of course there's pregnancy with case of measles...which has some more nasty consequences.

When breakouts occur...and they're getting progressively more common...Anti-vaxer's will learn the hard way. It's really that simple and tragic. They'll be responsible for their own kid's injuries and deaths...and those of others as well.

CDC: 102 measles cases in January, most stemming from Disney outbreak - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/02/health/cdc-january-measles-report-disney/)

Mariam
02-04-2015, 08:11 PM
Vickie - It is good to note that this link is from the Howard Hughes Medical Institute which has great free resources for science education. I ordered a box of DVDs and a quarterly science magazine for free!

Thanks for posting this.

alexsmom
02-04-2015, 08:38 PM
Measles Related Resources for Your Class (http://us5.campaign-archive1.com/?u=3c8034ebf5d74492b5c8ef8c9&id=205bd946c0&e=9ab75%2030882)

Coolbeans! I remember watching the NOVA show they recommend, tried getting my sister to watch it (she just had her first baby).

Thanks for sharing!

firefly77
02-04-2015, 09:20 PM
Thanks for this! My kids are waaaay too young for this, but there are some fantastic resources here for older kids (and also for myself on a nerdy night). That NOVA show was fantastic. I have a five-month old who is too young for the MMR, the measles have been on my mind of late (I'm counting on herd immunity to protect her and nervous about the recent outbreak (although I do ultimately respect people's rights to decide what goes into their bodies even if I disagree with their choices - really!))

CrazyMom
02-04-2015, 09:45 PM
A growing number of clinicians are refusing to see patients who are unwilling to be vaccinated due to their own preference (and not a medical justification).

This makes perfect sense to me. Why would they accept the increased risk of having unvaccinated kids in their waiting rooms full of sick people? Particularly with illnesses like Measles...which is airborne.

If I were a doctor, I wouldn't see patients who choose this. It wouldn't be fair to endanger my other patients.

http://www.kake.com/home/headlines/Some-doctors-offices-wont-receive-unvaccinated-patients-290725331.html
http://www.wbaltv.com/doctor-wont-see-unvaccinated-kids/31089198
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/docs-turn-unvaccinated-patients/story?id=13037217

If I had a baby right now....I would actively seek out a doctor who refuses unvaccinated patients. For the safety of my baby...at least until his vaccination schedule is complete.

ejsmom
02-04-2015, 10:25 PM
My child had severe reactions to different vaccines, and was hospitalized more than once afterward, and now has a medical exemption. It's one reason we homeschool. DH had a computer/math guy figure out with the population under age 18, and 100 cases in the US, DS has a .0000003 % chance of even being exposed to it. I'll take my chances. And I totally support everyone's right to get any vaccine they want. Or not. I am pro-choice - you choose what you do with your body/child. In every respect: pregnancy, vaccines, what you eat, how you educate, etc.

IEF
02-04-2015, 10:56 PM
Who are these crazy "anti-vaxxers" anyway? I'm 50 years old and have never met a single one. I've met people who choose not to vaccinate their own kids, but I have yet to encounter this "movement" of wackos trying to keep me from getting my kids vaccinated on schedule that everybody seems to be talking about this week.

Maybe I'm just lucky and have always bumbled across good doctors???

Anywho, thanks for the link, Vickie; my math/science geek is going to enjoy it.

CrazyMom
02-04-2015, 11:02 PM
Yeah, but with vaccination, you're not just choosing for just your kid...you're choosing for other people's kids as well, because of the way herd immunity works. It's a very fuzzy line....where one person's rights end and another person's right's begin....is a tough call to make.

People in your situation...who have kids who have legitimate reasons for not vaccinating...Severe documented reactions, or immunosuppressive illness...are more at risk when more people simply "choose" not to vaccinate and herd immunity becomes weak. Literally the only way we can protect kids like yours...is to implement stronger vaccination laws.

Back when EJ was born, in 2003...we had fewer than 50 cases of measles in the US. That trend held through 2008. But cases have been inching up every year.

Last year, we had 600+ cases. And already this year, we've had over 100 cases. And he can get it....by breathing at Walmart (or Disneyland as the case may be).

I get what you're saying, but when you're talking about a highly contagious airborne illness....your numbers don't hold true. This shit is bad. It spreads very very fast.

It's not like contact viral contagions...like mumps or the flu. It's a whole different animal. Mumps and Flu are a LOT tougher to get. You have to touch something and introduce it to your mucous membranes. If you stay six feet away from coughing people and use good hygiene, you can (mostly) control exposure. But you can catch Measles from breathing contaminated air. Worse, it's a tough virus, and will stay infective in the air up to two hours! You really can't protect yourself without being an absolute hermit.

If I had a kid who was not vaccinatable due to a medical exemption.....I would be twice as staunchly in support stronger vaccination laws...for my own child's safety.

With an airborne illness outbreak...it wouldn't take much of a perfect storm..... to have devastating consequences for unvaccinated kids.


Before the measles vaccine in 1963, the death rate from measles was close to twice that from polio. Fortunately, the new vaccine turned the situation around. In 1963 and 1964, there were over 800,000 cases of measles in the United States. By 1982, vaccination had largely eliminated the disease in the US.

I remember measles...close up and personal. My older cousin is severely developmentally disabled due to a case of it in 1960 when he was an toddler. This kinda informs my perspective.

And I'm sure your traumatic memories of your child's vaccination reaction...also informs your perspective.

alexsmom
02-04-2015, 11:08 PM
It was either NOVA or Frontline that talked abt the anti-vacciners. I think frontline.
Even Dr Sears is more in the *different schedule vaccinations* than whatever the CDC says.
The idea is that we are flooding babies with too many foreign chemicals all at once when they are too little to be able to cope with it. So if one spreads them out over more time then its less potentially harmful. Not anti-vaccine wackos, but a more gentle schedule.
EJ had a reaction, it seems unfair that his herd immunity would be compromised by people who decide not to vaccinate their kids for fear of ASD. Thats just my thought.

dragonfly
02-04-2015, 11:17 PM
I find these fascinating (This one is about the polio vaccine) http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM133479.pdf

And measles: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM123789.pdf

I'm not advocating for one side or the other, just saying that whatever you choose, I think it's good to be informed about how these are made, adverse reactions, effectiveness, and so on.

dbsam
02-04-2015, 11:33 PM
..........

ejsmom
02-05-2015, 12:55 AM
No. That's not exactly true that I want everyone to vaccinate to protect my kid. Herd immunity is a theory, and I haven't seen proof of it working. Believe me, after what we've gone through I have read every study on both sides and from all around the world.

I still support everyone's right to choose. I do not feel my child is at risk from unvaccinated kids. I've found most parents who make that choice are very cautious and respectful and it's not chosen lightly. According to my kid's specialist, my kid is actually more at risk from a newly vaccinated kid shedding the virus for 2 weeks.

If I had been given the chance to read a package insert beforehand, I'm not sure I would have consented to a medical procedure with those risks, where they state that they do not know what the carcinogenic results are, or fertility affects, or even if it is effective, and so on. With no recourse, because doctors and manufacturers are protected. We had no compensation for our medical bills. And the doctor did not want to risk my child again, and refused to vaccinate DS - so gave a medical exemption, but also was not willing to file a VAERS so we could be compensated. By the time I learned about that, it was too late to do so. We lost thousands and thousands of dollars in medical bills that we took from DS's college fund and our retirement. We had help from our families or we would have had to sell our home.

I wish everyone would not look at this issue so cut and dried. It's just not. Modern medical science does not have the means to treat viruses, because they mutate. That is always going to happen. There are many kids and adults who suffer permanent injury and even death from vaccines. That is fact, also. Simply forcing everyone to vaccinate will not stop these illnesses. Some people will never develop resistance from the vaccine. Some people have issues (these are not yet all identified) that cause them to react severely to them. We need to figure out why and how to identify those people beforehand, so as to make it safer for those who chose vaccination, rather than just say "it's safe for everyone, just do it" because that is not true. Some people have liver issues and cannot clear the preservatives safely. That was another issue my child suffered from, which was discovered later.

Each choice carries risk. It goes both ways that you put someone else at risk no matter which choice you make - when someone can't or doesn't vaccinate, they may be more at risk to picking up disease. When someone chooses to vaccinate, they may put someone at risk on chemo, or who can't vaccinate, or a newborn, by shedding that injected virus. I don't know what the big huge drama is all about, either. If you are really worried about being exposed to a virus either go get a booster. Or better yet, have your titers run to see if you have immunity, then decide. DH never had the chicken pox, nor the vaccine, yet he somehow has full immunity titers as if he had the chicken pox. So during an exposure somewhere along the way, his body did what it needed to do to properly incorporate immunity in his immune system DNA, without causing him illness. Due to DS's reaction, I studied this issue inside, outside, upside down, neuroimmune specialists from around the world. If you think it's a simple fix, it's not. I can argue both sides and convince you.

It's just not that simple.

I absolutely hate blanket statements on such difficult issues like this. Yes, I agree measles can be dangerous. Yes, my parents had the measles and mumps and were fine and now have lifetime immunity and never need a shot. I had the chicken pox and was fine. But some kids are not, and that is a consideration.

Where I'm from there are a lot of Anabaptists and religious people who choose not to vaccinate due to the use of aborted fetal tissue in the manufacturing process. I respect their right to not be forced to inject something into their bodies. I think forcing people to be injected with anything the government mandates is a slippery slope I want no part of.

I'm in a weird place with it all because I was very pro-vaccine and then my kid was horribly, terribly ill from a reaction and took years to recover from that. And he did, eventually, have an autism diagnosis but that was one among many, and that was long after his reaction. It was more like he his immune system just blew up, and he had symptoms of a stroke, almost with severe neuro symptoms. I don't think every kid with an autism diagnosis got it from vaccines.

I don't think the vaccine/viral issue is as black and white as it's made out to be.

I also don't think health care in modern America is doing such a good job anymore. The healthier you are: the better your nutrition, your vitamin D status, the fewer chemicals and radiation you are exposed to, the more you are physically fit, the better you handle stress, how much sleep you get - all those things very highly impact whether or not you will develop any virus you are exposed to. Yet most people don't want to deal with that. Modern life doesn't support it. It's much easier to take a pill to sleep, lose weight, relax. I think we really need to get back to movement, real food, and living in a way that doesn't require a pill to make it through the day or night. Going through everything we have gone through in my family, we now chose to try to live life that way and that's partly how we ended up as homeschoolers.

dbsam
02-05-2015, 01:07 AM
Thank you EJsMom. You said it much better than my emotional, deleted thread. I wanted to multi-quote your entire post!

I have two children who had severe vaccine reactions. The resulting epilepsy, effects of anti-seizure drugs, auto-immune issues, etc. make me sensitive to this subject.

I am sorry your son and your family went through all of this. Your journey sounds very familiar to ours.

CrazyMom
02-05-2015, 01:12 AM
Herd immunity IS a theory. Exactly like gravity is a theory.

Measles resulted in about 96,000 deaths in 2013 down from 545,000 deaths in 1990. In 1980, before widespread vaccination, the disease is estimated to have caused 2.6 million deaths per year. (worldwide) The proof that it works is unquestionable.

Because of widespread measles vaccination, we save over two and a half million lives a year.

We have fewer than ten thousand negative vaccination events per year worldwide... associated with measles vaccination. Of those events, few result in permanent injuries....and a even fewer still...result in death.

It's not that I'm unsympathetic to people who have suffered a negative vaccination event...I am indeed VERY sorry that happened to your family, ejsmom.

But the evidence that herd immunity works, and saves millions of lives...is overwhelming.

I don't have a dog in this race. My hubby and I are well vaccinated. My kid was vaccinated in childhood, and was recently boostered (due to her work in labs with human pathogens). If we have outbreaks...she's not going to be among the people whose lives are in danger. My family...is not who I am worried about here.

Measles is the MOST CONTAGIOUS disease on the planet. It is very literally 7-9 times more contagious than Ebola. The average Measles patient spreads it to 15 to 18 people. The average Ebola patient...to 2.

Measles is so contagious that if one person has it, 9 of 10 people close to that person who are not immune will also become infected.

And we've had over 100 cases in the US so far this year.

Vaccinated people....stop measles in it's tracks. They do not contract the illness and cannot spread it. They are the defense shield. Unvaccinated people...contract it and rapidly spread it to other unvaccinated people.....in effect making cracks in our defense shield.

That's how it reaches your town. That's how it endangers vulnerable kids who can't be vaccinated.

Strong herd immunity...prevents this.

alexsmom
02-05-2015, 09:27 PM
There are people who have legitimate reasons to not vaccinate.
To me, the people who refuse to vaccinate because a celebrity told them it would give their kids autism, are not in this category.

I worry all the time with my baby whether his issues (almost 3 and has motor planning issues, still is nonverbal) are from getting vaccines. To me this is irrational, but its been fed by hooplah and anecdotal stories. Maybe its that we look for some cause, something we did or didnt do, to be the explanation for why our kid didnt develop typically.

Sigh.

Mariam
02-06-2015, 12:22 PM
It is much easier having this discussion online but here is an article on the the vaccination battles and turning them into discussions: Vaccination fight: The measles outbreak is ruining friendships and breaking up playgroups. (http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2015/02/05/vaccination_fight_the_measles_outbreak_is_ruining_ friendships_and_breaking.html)

CrazyMom
02-06-2015, 01:29 PM
From yesterday:

Five babies at Chicago daycare diagnosed with measles - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/five-babies-at-chicago-daycare-diagnosed-with-measles-report/article22805944/)

firefly77
02-06-2015, 05:20 PM
^^^^^^^

I was going to post this from the Tribune yesterday. We are in the south suburbs of Chicago, so this is scary stuff for me. I hope those babies are all going to be OK. My 5-month-old has only had a few shots so far, but my older kids haven't been affected negatively from any shots and I'm very grateful for that. I really feel for those parents who have kids who have had adverse reactions and I can imagine that it would make it harder/impossible to see the vaccine issue as black and white.

If only drug companies would put money into researching vaccines for vax-sensitive kids - even if that means less funding for Viagra (or whatever) research.

I don't worry about my older kids being around un-vaxed kids. It's really the kids without the vaccinations who are more at risk (unless of course my kids are in the purported 5-10% who aren't fully protected after just the first dose of the MMR vaccine), but I do worry about my infant. Our pediatrician is currently advising that we keep the baby at home or stick to visiting other homes where we know everyone is vaccinated. I'm not sure if that's alarmist or not, given the circumstances in our region.

I can totally see this issue coming between friends. I guess once my kids are fully immunized and old enough to visit other kids' homes without me I'm going to have to start asking whether the parents have guns in the house and, if so, where exactly they are located. How's THAT for another can of worms? (I'm totally joking here - I do not want to discuss guns)

alexsmom
02-06-2015, 05:44 PM
From this article also on Slate
How do pediatricians work with anti-vaccine parents? MDs? frustrations, failures, and strategies. (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2015/02/how_do_pediatricians_work_with_anti_vaccine_parent s_mds_frustrations_failures.html)

This exercise has convinced me we ought to reserve the phrase “anti-vaxxer” for that small group of committed, loud-mouthed ignoramuses who try to spread their pernicious, conspiratorial nonsense to innocent parents and children. The vast majority of those who don’t vaccinate their children, however, represent a collective social failure. Somehow, we’re slowly losing a debate to a group of people who are spectacularly, demonstrably wrong.

It reminds me a lot of the strange creationism believed by (some) modern Americans.

crunchynerd
02-06-2015, 05:50 PM
Boy am I dumb sometimes.

crunchynerd
02-06-2015, 08:34 PM
Did anyone see Thursday's Rachel Maddow Show? A woman was talking somewhat perjoratively about people who don't vaccinate, and lumped them in with "religious factions who believe in homeschooling". Talk about being comfortable with her stereotypes! Go ahead, lady, spread the love around!

firefly77
02-06-2015, 10:32 PM
cunchynerd, you are most definitely NOT dumb. I enjoy your posts but just thought I missed something on this one.

I also want to add that I'm not sure that liking shows how much I appreciate ejsmom's thoughts. I'm not sure that I would have such an open mind if my own kid had adverse reactions to vaccines.

firefly77
02-06-2015, 10:34 PM
Did anyone see Thursday's Rachel Maddow Show? A woman was talking somewhat perjoratively about people who don't vaccinate, and lumped them in with "religious factions who believe in homeschooling". Talk about being comfortable with her stereotypes! Go ahead, lady, spread the love around!

I know. It's hard to be a "weirdo" within a community of "weirdos." Some of the most vociferous objections to homeschooling have come from my most liberal relatives.

CrazyMom
02-06-2015, 11:26 PM
Interesting article today....University of California (which includes UCLA and Berkeley....also California State and the California Community Colleges system) says that by 2017, they will no longer register students for classes who cannot provide documentation that they've been vaccinated.

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/uc-plans-to-require-vaccinations-for-incoming-students-in-2017

"It will require that by 2017 all incoming students show documentation not only for hepatitis B vaccination but also for TB screening and four more vaccines: measles, mumps and rubella; meningococcus; varicella (chicken pox); and tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis (whooping cough)."



This will be an interesting precedent. Particularly given University of California Berkeley's School of Public Health's reputation as a world authority on epidemiology.

I hope other Universities follow their example.

CrazyMom
02-07-2015, 04:38 PM
2013 Vaccination rates for Measles around the world!

United Kingdom 95%
Canada 95%
Czech Republic 99%
Egypt 96%
Finland 97%
Germany 97%
Israel 97%
Japan 95%
Sweden 97%
Thailand 99%



United States of America 91% and falling.

It astounds me that people don't take this vulnerability seriously. Even from the standpoint of using it as a biological weapon. Would be so easy. It's insanely contagious.

9% of the US population is 29 million people. One in 500 dies.....potentially about 58,000 people (mostly kids under 5). About the same number of American lives lost in the entire Vietnam War.

Vietnam....where vaccination rates currently put us to shame...at 96%

The number of hospitalizations is disturbing to think about, too.

When the Amish had 370 cases of measles last year....they ended up needing 10 hospitalizations. About 2.5 hospitalizations per hundred cases.

So....if we had a massive measles outbreak and the same numbers held true....that's like 720,000 hospital beds needed!

Obviously not everyone's going to be sick at the same time, and thank goodness the people who ARE vaccinated will provide a shield for many of the vulnerable.

But really think about it....how easy could measles be used as a biological? Atomize it at the Super Bowl...or any other select place where thousands of people assemble from all over the country. It would be undetectable, and those spreading it need only a vaccination to be safe.

The whole vulnerable population would not get sick....but the cracks are there for it to be more widespread than we can imagine. We might not need 720,000 hospital beds...maybe just a fraction of that...

But here's the scary part....

We don't even have one million staffed beds in the US....let alone the pediatric beds that would be most in demand.

Why are kids so vulnerable? Beyond their underdeveloped immune systems....Measles mucus is very thick and little kids have very small airways. Dangerous combination.

I don't mean to keep harping this point.....but the reality is...it's not about "respecting differences". Viruses have no respect for you. They kill you. They kill your kids. And measles...in particular....is a ruthless MFer of an illness.

And....I'm done now.

KristinK
02-09-2015, 11:41 PM
If I had a baby right now....I would actively seek out a doctor who refuses unvaccinated patients. For the safety of my baby...at least until his vaccination schedule is complete.

doesn't the vax pamphlet literature actually state that the vax (since it's a live virus), CAN shed for up to 2wks following the shot? Meaning that the toddler who just had the shot could POSSIBLY be contagious for up to 2wks? meaning "you", taking "your hypothetical baby" to the pro-vax Dr, could be passing by multiple possibly-contagious children? either right after their shot (ok, maybe too soon to be contagious), or a few days after their shot when worried mom brings them in because they've had a stiff arm for a few days, etc?

This part has me really curious. Maybe I'm wrong in believing that the vax has the potential to pass measles? But I do know someone who has a family member undergoing treatment for leukemia, and the Dr cautioned against any recently vaxxed kids going near that person...why? because they're contagious?

CrazyMom
02-10-2015, 12:31 AM
You're thinking of Polio....not measles.

There has NEVER been a secondary transmission of measles from a newly vaccinated child. Ever. The process used to modify the live agent makes it weak and unable to spread.

The same has not always been true of the Polio vaccine. Modified live polio, in a few instances, has been known to cause the illness. Since doctors figured this out....they've given killed vaccine instead of live for the first shot. This causes short term partial immunity, which can be safely boostered by the modified live version for long term immunity with no risk of spread.

The doctor cautioned your friend with leukemia to be careful of newly vaccinated kids because of Polio vaccine. In many cases, the live vaccine is given orally. Hypothetically, If a child were to vomit the vaccine on someone with compromised immunity, there could be a problem. There is no danger for normal social contact. But a caretaker who might be exposed to vomit....should be warned.

On general principle....immunocompromised people should keep their distance from school aged kids who might be running fevers. You never know if it's a vaccine response or something they brought home from their peers.

As shocking as this might seem....doctors and immunologists really DO think about this stuff.

And yes, I absolutely stand by my previous thought....I would not take my baby to a clinic that treats unvaccinated children until after the child was fully vaccinated at age 4.

Starkspack
02-10-2015, 08:34 AM
Here's my take. When I had DD, I read everything I could get my hands on. I wasn't convinced vaccines cause autism, but I definitely was disturbed by the possible side effects. Our decision was to delay vaccination, not ignore it. The biggest issue I had was taking a tiny baby and injecting ANY sort of foreign substance into her. Just seemed wrong to me. I felt better with the idea of letting her grow up some before starting the vaccination schedule. In doing this, we ended up skipping some vaccines entirely (Rotovirus is only given to infants, not children), and others we were able to give fewer doses. We also opted to give one vaccine at a time to lessen the shock to the body and the possible side effects.

I did not feel the slightest bit guilty about this decision - it was right for US. Since we homeschool, our DD was not constantly around other kids, plus she was and continues to be (knock on wood) healthy as a horse.

I get irritated when people get lumped into stereotypes. I would definitely say I have crunchy-hippie life sentiments, we were into attachment parenting (breastfed to 2 years, co-slept until age 6.5) big time, we were "rebels" (according to some, to me we were just being thoughtful parents doing what we thought best) on vaccinating, and yet I spend my work days in corporate America in a very conservative, capitalist industry. To each, his/her own.

I think everyone should be respected for their own decisions. One caveat here for me, however, is that I feel strongly that people need to do their own work. In this example, do your own research on vaccines - don't just read the hype on one side or the other, and don't just follow the lead of someone without checking it out. If you've done your homework and you reach a different conclusion than I did, I will respect you for it. But I don't easily tolerate following the herd just for the sake of following the herd, regardless of which herd you are following. If that even makes sense. :p

CrazyMom
02-10-2015, 12:03 PM
Babies are bombarded with challenges to their immune system daily. Hundreds of them. A vaccine is no different....except that we can control it, and make it MUCH safer than being exposed to the actual pathogen.

That "tiny baby" is at far greater risk of becoming dead...due to it's primary exposure to said pathogens in the unsafe natural way. (As evidenced by two and a half million tiny babies who died yearly globally before the vaccine)

So you've decided not to vaccinate your kid. Here are some possible outcomes:

1. Your kid is never exposed due to the responsible choices of others. (pretty likely)
2. Your kid is exposed, and gets a mild case of the illness...develops antibodies naturally.
3. Your kid is young, and the thick mucous associated with measles...clogs his/her tiny airways resulting in hospitalization/pneumonia or death. (of the 370 cases of measles among the Amish last year...10 babies were hospitalized with pneumonia and breathing difficulty)
4. Your kid draws the really unlucky card....of getting encephalitis....which often ends in death.

So you're thinking....number 3 and 4 are pretty rare....you'll take your chance. And number 2 sounds really good....my kid is healthy, and isn't it better to develop your own antibodies?

Here's a problem with getting a nice easy case of measles, or even a subclinical case......it puts you at risk for Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis. About 7 to 10 years AFTER a case of measles...people who have had measles are at risk for this chronic progressive encephalitis. It has to be medically managed for life and is usually fatal after years of being debilitating.

All sorts of things can go wrong with a tough case of measles....hearing loss, seizures, pneumonia, retardation, decreased clotting due to decreased platelets. (this could be pretty nasty if you happen to need emergency surgery)

Lets go back to that best case scenario....

Your child is lucky enough to never be exposed...due to the responsible choices of others. So what's wrong with this?

You've laid the groundwork for a cultural shift of belief for your family. Maybe your daughter won't vaccinate her kids either....her kids decide not to vaccinate, too. How many generations until someone you love draws the unlucky card that your choices inspired?

Pregnancy as an unvaccinated woman would be terrifying....given that first measles exposure during pregnancy can cause miscarriage, low birth weight and other deficits. Not a great legacy to leave the childbearing women in your family.

As more and more people make the choice not to vaccinate.....the risk to these people....goes up exponentially.

CrazyMom
02-10-2015, 12:31 PM
Roald Dahl writes about his seven-year-old daughter Olivia's death from measles encephalitis:

“As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it,” wrote Dahl of the illness. “Then one morning, when she was well on the road to recovery, I was sitting on her bed showing her how to fashion little animals out of colored pipe-cleaners, and when it came to her turn to make one herself, I noticed that her fingers and her mind were not working together and she couldn’t do anything. ‘Are you feeling all right?’ I asked her. ‘I feel all sleepy,’ she said. In an hour, she was unconscious. In 12 hours she was dead.”

So who is this guy?

He's the author of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, James and the Giant Peach, etc...

CrazyMom
02-10-2015, 03:01 PM
Between October 1990 and June 1991, more than 1,400 people living in Philadelphia were infected with measles, and nine children died. The epidemic started when, after returning from a trip to Spain, a teenager with a blotchy rash attended a rock concert at the Spectrum. By Nov. 29, 96 schoolchildren had been stricken with the illness; a week later, it was 124; by the end of December, the number had risen to 258, and the first child had died.

Nine dead kids out of 1400 infections.

I remember this pretty clearly, because I was 18 and went to a lot of concerts that year. Was just way too close to home. It made it real.

firefly77
02-10-2015, 03:39 PM
And yes, I absolutely stand by my previous thought....I would not take my baby to a clinic that treats unvaccinated children until after the child was fully vaccinated at age 4.

I've definitely thought about this. Our schools have a nearly 100% vaccination rate (not sure about the rest of the population, but we're on a very working-class south Chicago suburbs area --- hardly Marin County-type folks down here!), but our pediatrician (who is an immigrant from Africa) does not refuse to see patients who do not vaccinate. I asked him once about it and he mentioned something about respecting people's First Amendment rights ...

Also, this is kind of quibbling, but most kids aren't fully vaccinated with MMR until age 5. The window for the second dose is 4-6 years, and there is some medical argument (according to my doctor at least) for giving the second dose at 5 or before Kindergarten rather than 4 because some studies have shown that the vaccine offers more effective immunity when the second dose is given a little later. Many daycare places, though, require the second dose at 4.

Anyway, I love our pediatrician but do ultimately see this measles thing as a public health issue. In Chicago, all the babies infected in the northern suburbs (the total is now 8, 9 including one adult) were unvaccinated, the majority because they were too young. So, seeing a pediatrician who refuses unvaccinated kids doesn't really solve the problem of exposure for my infant. If we breathed the same air as those sick KinderCare kids, she would be at extreme risk.

CrazyMom
02-10-2015, 05:44 PM
"So, seeing a pediatrician who refuses unvaccinated kids doesn't really solve the problem of exposure for my infant."

It doesn't "solve it" but it dramatically reduces risk of your baby being infected with measles at the doctor's office....where coughing people with mysterious illnesses are regularly brought. See what I mean?


My doctor will not see patients who refuse to vaccinate their children. She gives them six months to come around, and if they fail to get on board, she terminates them as clients. She says she does this for the safety of her other patients in the waiting room, particularly those who are immunocompromised.

While I appreciate your doctor's interest in freedoms and liberties.....I'm much more impressed with my doctor's attention to practicing good medicine.

crunchynerd
02-10-2015, 06:32 PM
Thanks for the vote of confidence, firefly77. I just remarked on how dumb I was, when I misunderstood someone's meaning, and then replied, then read again, did a double-take, and hoped I had time to delete, before anyone saw!

Being openminded is an enormous challenge in our hyper-reactionary and polarized society (fed by sensationalism in the form of news as an entertainment commodity), and I admired ejsmom's courage, and the courage and compassion of everyone else who was able to speak their mind here while still being respectful of the fact that people differ markedly on this issue, and that it doesn't mean one of them must be totally wrong, or a total moron. It's just not that simple, much as people want to make it that way.

Trying to stay off Facebook right now because all it does is raise my stress levels. I do feel like the villagers are starting to gather with torches and pitchforks, with all the talk about forced medication I am now hearing. All totalitarianism requires, is a spooked herd and a scapegoat mentality. Scare people just enough, while implying that any group of non-compliers are to blame, and you have all that is necessary for all sorts of human rights abuses to be sanctioned by the general public. Machiavellian reasoning is always there, and we *all* have "good intentions" but none of us can foresee everything, much as we wish it were so.

momto2js
02-10-2015, 06:38 PM
I have a blanket statement to make, I honestly did not read all 4 pages above. I consider it my great privilege and responsibility, as a parent of healthy children, to vaccinate. In doing so, I choose to protect those that are not a lucky as I am.

CrazyMom
02-10-2015, 06:41 PM
Let's look at two families with infants:

Baby Number One: Pro-vax family. All members of the family are vaccinated. They choose only preschools with 100% vaccination compliance. They choose a doctor's office with vaccination requirements. They don't expose the baby to a lot of crowds for that first year.

Each of these factors provides a layer of protection for that baby. Baby One is likely to be safe at home....brothers and sisters are vaccinated and won't bring it home because they're vaccinated. Brother's and sister's FRIENDS are likely to also be safe for baby...because they are likely to be vaccinated belonging to the same school. Baby's visits to the doctor...are going to be much safer because few of the clients will be at risk for carrying it into the building because they also come from pro-vac families.

If Baby One is in a crowd and has exposure to a sick person's air......he/she could still get it. But by removing risk at home....99% of Baby One's day....is significantly less risky.


Baby Number Two: Parents anti-vaxxers. Dad was never vaccinated, Mom was as a child, but brothers and sis are not. They go to a school with a significant population of unvaccinated kids. They are not overly concerned about an ill unvaccinated person being in the same waiting room as their unvaccinated child.

Baby Number Two has a CONSTANT threat of exposure. The siblings could bring it home from school or other outings. The sibling's friends or families could contract it and be infective to baby. Friends and family members who share anti-vax views are also potential routes of transmission. Dad could bring it home from work. Any of these people could bring home an infection from the grocery store, from a crowd gathering, from a PTA meeting, from a soccer game, from an after school meeting. Unvaccinated people in your child's life = routes of infection.

Baby number two is NOT safe in his/her own home...because there are multiple routes for the disease to reach him/her.

Baby Two spends much more time at risk.

Statistically....baby two is MUCH more likely to get the disease.

Aroura
02-10-2015, 06:50 PM
My take is that there is a known risk with SOME vaccines. They can trigger pre-existing genetic disorders and they do have a small chance of causing an allergic reaction which can be very severe. Very, very rare (as in with Polio) they can cause illnesses in and of themselves. However, the Polio vaccine was altered in the 90's after a couple of cases were brought to light, so that it can no longer be transmissible in vaccine form, so it is not any more dangerous than other vaccines now.

From all of my reading and understanding, the vast majority of people who believe their child suffered from a vaccine actually had child already developing something that was either entirely coincidental (as this age is when developmental issues start to show) and people make incorrect cause and effect assumptions, or they trigger existing genetic conditions that would have been triggered at some point by some other environmental factor anyway. This is the case with kids who develop epilepsy, from what I've read.

I am always nervous when taking DD in for her vaccines. You never know if your kid is going to be the rare one with the allergy or dormant medical condition, and it IS scary! However, it is a risk-reward decision. The risk of dying from things like whooping cough or measles is VERY HIGH! The risk of dying or even becoming damaged from vaccines is VERY LOW.

Although I support freedom of choice inmost things, I don't when it comes to the safety of the general public. Children who have auto-immune disorders and such cannot be vaccinated, and people who CHOSE not to vaccinate put those children at risk.

I was just reading that the number of pediatricians who are refusing to treat unvaccinated children (not including those who cannot vaccinate, only those who "chose" not to) is growing, as a reaction to this minority putting their other patients at risk. Personally, I applaud these doctors for standing up for the safety of their patients, even when they face ridicule from this vocal minority.

People really need to weigh the risk vs the reward. Our other option is to go back 200 years to when infant mortality was through the roof, and more than HALF of all children died before the age of 5 due to these childhood illnesses that we no longer even think about.

firefly77
02-10-2015, 06:53 PM
"So, seeing a pediatrician who refuses unvaccinated kids doesn't really solve the problem of exposure for my infant."

It doesn't "solve it" but it dramatically reduces risk of your baby being infected with measles at the doctor's office....where coughing people with mysterious illnesses are regularly brought. See what I mean?


I think I do see what you mean. But in Chicago right now the vast majority of measles cases are kids too young to be immunized. So, if a parent brought their sick baby into the office with a mysterious illness that turned out to be measles and we had an appointment soon after we'd be completely vulnerable. I do not want my baby (or anyone's baby or anyone at all for that matter, especially since it's almost completely preventable) to get the measles, but if my doctor didn't treat that sick child that would be a violation of the Hippocratic Oath I would think.

CrazyMom
02-10-2015, 07:01 PM
I disagree. A physician has a duty to protect the safety of his clientele and maintain the safest possible environment in his/her clinic. We are talking about the most communicable disease on the planet....Measles.

How would you feel if your doctor had Ebola patients in his waiting area, leaving little smudges of debris from open sores on the furnature where your kid is climbing? Measles is nine times more contagious than Ebola.

The FIRST thing you learn in emergency services. First, you do no harm. You do not endanger people needlessly.

We're not talking about a doctor's choice to randomly not see people. We're talking about doctors who patiently explain their reasoning, give time for compliance, and cut loose those who willfully endanger their other clients.

firefly77
02-10-2015, 07:09 PM
Oh, CrazyMom, I'm not talking about kids whose parents won't get them shots, I'm talking about vulnerable little babies like mine. I'm frustrated that - even though we keep our babies mostly home for their first year - I don't really feel comfortable taking her anywhere public for the foreseeable future and I'm counting down the minutes until her vaccination schedule is more complete.

ejsmom
02-10-2015, 07:30 PM
I agree crunchy. Even with the scary sounding statistics of 9 out 1400, when you do the math it's a fractionally small percentage. Of course, I do not want anyone to get the measles, but I'm certainly not terrified of getting them or even terrified for my child - and I no longer have the option of vaccinating my kid.

If one is really living in utter fear of the measles, my son's immunologist told us long ago that your vitamin A status at the time of exposure is a large factor in whether or not you will contract it if exposed, and how severe it would be and/or the risk of complications if you did contract it. Vaccinated or not, perhaps we need to bring nutrition into the discussion. It may be in people's best interest to look at their diet and vitamin A levels. Especially since Merck is currently in a legal situation for forging the efficacy of the MMR that is on the market! People who can and do get vaccinations are not as protected as they think they are, unfortunately, so additional means of protection is something that should be discussed with your health care provider.

I also don't understand why people who are most alarmist about this issue do not look at their whole picture of health. Communicable diseases are a concern, indeed. However, if you are in good health to begin with, you are less likely to contract any virus, and to fair better if you do.

Living in terror of measles? When you have been vaccinated for it? That sounds a bit more like an emotional issue. Even if you are not vaccinated you are far, far more likely to die in an auto accident, from food poisoning, or from heart disease. Yet no one feels the need to post endless comments about side curtain airbags, 5 point harness child seats, driving while tired, tire and break quality, kitchen and food sanitation precautions, or fitness and diet tips. I'm not quite understanding America's panic about measles if you vaccinate, but still consume fast food and don't engage in a fitness regimen. That's like closing the gate while the whole back fence is knocked down.

I've been on both sides of this. I used to question why anyone would not want their child fully vaccinated. I was horrified at friends who vaccinated on a slower pace, or not at all. I wondered why on earth they wouldn't just protect their kids and what their problem was? I thought they were stupid. I could have written some of the posts on this thread. I made sure my kid never missed a vaccine.

Then I learned, the hard way, why some people are cautious. Up close and personal. My child had 3 separate hospitalized reactions: one at 4 months, one at age 2, and the last one at age 4. He recovered from the skin peeling and 105 fever at 4 months. So we chanced it again: Thrombocytopenia and 105.7 fever was the outcome that time. Still, he recovered. Then at age 4, he was in horrible shape with too many neuro issues to list here. His functional ability went to that of an 18 month old's. His immune system was a disaster. It's taken 8 years and countless therapies and over a hundred thousand of dollars in medical expenses (most NOT covered by insurance) to get him where he is today.

I would not feel comfortable asking any parent to not vaccinate and risk disease. Nor would I wish what we went through on my worst enemy, and would feel just us uncomfortable requiring a parent to vaccinate against their wishes.

It IS a very complicated issue. I know people do NOT want it to be so. I know it is often presented in simple black and white terms, but that just isn't true IRL. Until we went through what we did, I had no idea that my personal doctor (a board certified MD, OB/GYN) has not and will not vaccinate her own kids. My husband has a client who is an epidemiologist at prestigious east coast institution and much DH's surprise he is not one who feels the issue is murky: he is vehemently anti-vaccine and feels the current practices are ruining the health of Americans and destroying our immune systems and neurological systems. A friend of mine is married to an executive at a major pharmaceutical company that manufactures vaccines and they will not vaccinate their kids. The AMA is against vaccine mandates, and supports informed consent. I was surprised at these things when I learned them.

I only share this to show that it is not accurate to say in a blanket statement across the board that all scientists, doctors, immunologist, and epidemiologists agree and know that this issue is clear cut and we should all get vaccinated and there are no risks. We are debating it because there is a benefit vs. risk ratio that is not the same for everyone. Genetic, allergic, and immune issues DO play a role in safety and efficacy. There are financial concerns for parents, schools, doctors, and vaccine makers -and that is on BOTH sides of the issue. For example, if a kid gets the measles, it can cost the family a great deal of necessary income when someone has to stay home and care for that child for 3 weeks. It also costs to care for a child with brain damage for their lifetime: regardless if the brain damage is from measles or a vaccine reaction.

In my experience, the parents on this group are highly intelligent, well educated, and do their due diligence and research on ALL matters relating to the well being of their kids: what they eat, their social skills, their reading ability, the math curriculum they use, and their unique health needs. I fully trust each parent here that they are completely 100% capable of reading a package insert, looking at both sides of the issue, discussing the options with their child's health provider(s), know their child's genetic history and allergy/immune issues, and research the benefits vs. risks and follow the trail to see who is behind the source they use for their info. Some anti-vaccine information is from non-reliable 'science' sources. Some vaccine information is promoted from those who most stand to profit directly from the sales of the product. The parents here look at the sources and parent companies in their CURRICULUM choices, so they most certainly are going to be ultra super conscientious with any food or medicine choice they make for their child. They are thoughtful with what they put in their kids brains, and bodies.

I trust my fellow homeschooling parents to make the very best decision for THEIR child, and their family, because ultimately they are the ones who have to live with whatever their decision brings. And regardless if they vaccinate, or don't, or do a different schedule, they will be blamed, attacked, and called crazy by somebody.

It's much like homeschooling. And now I'm off to bake a pie.

dbsam
02-10-2015, 08:00 PM
From all of my reading and understanding, the vast majority of people who believe their child suffered from a vaccine actually had child already developing something that was either entirely coincidental (as this age is when developmental issues start to show) and people make incorrect cause and effect assumptions, or they trigger existing genetic conditions that would have been triggered at some point by some other environmental factor anyway. This is the case with kids who develop epilepsy, from what I've read.

I realize antidotal stories aren't worth much to many people, but I would like to add my personal take on your comment. I had two babies who had severe reactions at the same time within twelve hours of vaccinations. That's a little too coincidental. My children were in the NICU for weeks as preemies and never had seizures. But within twelve hours of vaccinations she had seizures. We continued to vaccinate for almost three years because we wanted so badly to believe the doctor who told us the vaccines were not the cause that we disregarded logic. At one point my daughter was having hundreds of seizures a day. I cannot be sure her autism or my son's immune issues are a result of the vaccines. But I know the events that happened repeatedly to both children (high fevers, screaming for hours, seizures, etc), within hours of vaccines are. Our neurologist supported our decision to stop the vaccinations.

We have no family history of epilepsy, but we do have a family history of vaccine reactions. My husband, who was born in the early 60's when there were not so many vaccines, is not fully vaxed. We found out from his relative, after our children's health issues, that my husband was hospitalized after every vaccine and the doctors suggested his parents stop vaccinating. (In his case, it wasn't seizures. He had trouble breathing after vaccinations.)

I really hoped this thread would die and hesitated to add to the debate.


eta: I am not trying to convince people to stop vaccinating. I am not anti-vax. I simply wanted to point out that this is not a simple one-sided argument and it is upsetting when people disregard or minimize the affects vaccines can have on some children.

CrazyMom
02-11-2015, 12:10 AM
I doubt this thread will die anytime soon with the number of new measles cases climbing.

Firefly, I empathize. "I don't really feel comfortable taking her anywhere public for the foreseeable future and I'm counting down the minutes until her vaccination schedule is more complete."

I'd feel the same way if I had a little one.

CrazyMom
02-11-2015, 12:16 AM
Wonderful....now we've got a kid with it who has been attending class at community college outside of Chicago.

Elgin Community College student among latest measles cases - Elgin Courier-News (http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/elgin-courier-news/news/ct-ecn-ecc-measles-st-0211-20150210-story.html)

"prior to being diagnosed, the student attended classes on Tuesday, Feb. 3, and Thursday, Feb. 5, and also visited the library on Feb. 3. The college is working closely with public health officials to contact anyone who may have been exposed to measles from the student. Local physicians, clinics and hospitals are being alerted to watch for patients with measles symptoms."

And.... the college has a daycare.

Aroura
02-11-2015, 02:43 AM
I have to agree with CrazyMom, this thread isn't going to die anytime soon because the health issues we are discussing are happening right now, and growing!

Firefly, I also sympathize. I'd be very nervous if I had a tiny baby right now. My neighbor just had a baby in December, I bet she is freaking out. I'll have to bring her some hand sanitizer and a hug. :) At least we don't live in an area that currently has anyone diagnosed, although another neighbor down he road and all 5 of her kids got whooping cough last month and then tried to visit her, and the neighbor was angry that she got turned away by the new mom! Sometimes, I just don't understand people.

To those who's kids have had an allergic reaction to a vaccine, my heart goes out to you, it really does. But I would count your children among those who CANNOT be further vaccinated and so need to be protected by those of us who can do it.

crunchynerd
02-11-2015, 09:57 AM
If vitamin A status is significant in how well or poorly it progresses, and Vitamin A is good for anyone, anytime, I plan on putting more into our lives each day, but it appears we already do pretty well, eating so much kale, broccoli, and occasionally, liver.

Here's (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=106) what I found on Vitamin A: types, sources, effects as studied, etc. Mentions vit A deficiency increasing likelihood of vaccine reaction, highlights genetic differences in Vit A conversion and synthesis from person to person, mentions role of retinoids and carotenoids (forms of A) in immune function and allergy as a possibility, and that measles decreases vitamin A in the body? This doesn't appear to be something written about this measles outbreak, just seems to have some info pertinent to everyone's concern about how to stay healthier and have better outcomes regardless of what they do.

Hey, it can't hurt to eat more carrots, kale, eggs, sardines, liver, sweet potatoes, etc (for us, food allergies interfere with a lot of those choices, but not all).

CrazyMom
02-11-2015, 12:08 PM
"Additionally, vaccinated individuals can transmit measles. That is a fact."

You're DEAD WRONG.

If you think you're correct, kinda cite a source. Thanks:)

This is dangerously incorrect information, and I'm happy to take it to task.

One in one hundred people who get the vaccine don't develop immunity, and have a chance of getting infected. At that point, they are not truly "Vaccinated".

How many cases of measles have their been in recent outbreaks....in people who have received the vaccine?

Less than one tenth of 1%

THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SPREADING MEASLES ARE UNVACCINATED. That is a fact. The reason we have outbreaks, is that the vaccinated population has dipped below 95% in the US. It causes breaks in herd immunity and it is DANGEROUS.

bcnlvr
02-11-2015, 12:21 PM
@ crazymom (lol):

A simple google search netted me many results. Maybe you and I are using different search terms.

Here is one of countless studies regarding transmission in vaccinated individuals. This can be found on google (your internet friend): Outbreak of Measles Among Persons With Prior Evidence of Immunity, New York City, 2011 (http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/02/27/cid.ciu105)

Also, ANY immunocompromised patients should avoid those who have recently been given certain vaccinations (page 113): http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/kimmel_cancer_center/patient_information/Patient%20Guide%20Final.pdf

You are welcome to your "opinion", but it is really no one else's business and only serves to stir the pot, so to speak.

I deleted my initial post and am exiting this thread. I am a scientist and medical professional and wading into the hysteria was a mistake. A reversible decision, thankfully. Have a great day.

CrazyMom
02-11-2015, 12:37 PM
I noticed that you did not address my question.

How many of the positive measles cases in recent outbreaks occurred in vaccinated people?

And what was the conclusion of your article? That people who have symptoms of measles, regardless of vaccination status, should be investigated to stop the spread! Vaccination isn't perfect. With two doses, it's 99% effective, though. That's HUGE. That's how we reduced worldwide deaths from measles by one and a half million per year.

In the late 50's, here in the US before the vaccine....we had about 500 measles deaths a year. We had 4000 measles patients with encephalitis. If it didn't kill them, it often left them with brain injuries. 50,000 people per year were HOSPITALIZED due to complications from measles.

Why on Earth would anyone willfully want to return to this?

It's absolutely my business to care about this. I'm a mom, and I care when PREVENTABLE life threatening illness occurs in innocent kids....like this one:

Ontario Mom Jennifer Hibben-White's Note On Measles Drives The Reality Home (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/02/11/ontario-mom-measles-note_n_6660400.html)


Once upon a time....people who insisted drunk driving be stopped.....were called "pot stirrers".

It's interesting how a couple dozen dead kids...can change a person's "personal choices" from a civil liberties issue...to a public safety issue.

Aroura
02-11-2015, 12:59 PM
@ crazymom (lol):

A simple google search netted me many results. Maybe you and I are using different search terms.

Here is one of countless studies regarding transmission in vaccinated individuals. This can be found on google (your internet friend): Outbreak of Measles Among Persons With Prior Evidence of Immunity, New York City, 2011 (http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/02/27/cid.ciu105)

Also, ANY immunocompromised patients should avoid those who have recently been given certain vaccinations (page 113): http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/kimmel_cancer_center/patient_information/Patient%20Guide%20Final.pdf

You are welcome to your "opinion", but it is really no one else's business and only serves to stir the pot, so to speak.

I deleted my initial post and am exiting this thread. I am a scientist and medical professional and wading into the hysteria was a mistake. A reversible decision, thankfully. Have a great day.

I went out of my way and actaully looked at the document you cite a source that "ANY immunocompromised patients should avoid those who have recently been given certain vaccinations", but that information is NOT in that document. What it says is that cancer patients are more prone to some infections. Under a list of things to do to avoid infections, it mentioned avoiding crowds and sick people and also this:

"Do not get a flu shot or other type of vaccine without first asking your doctor or nurse. Some vaccines contain a live virus, which you should not be exposed to. "

Which is quite different than avoiding people who have ben recently vaccinated. It doesn't even say they cannot get any vaccine themselves, only avoid some. Flumist has the live virus, but not even all flu shots do.

Also, weirdly, the only people who seem unable to handle the discussion and are getting emotional (see hysteria), are not the ones who are pro-vax.

As to your first claim and the link you provided, it states that 4 people in a measels outbreak had medical records indicating they had their 2 measles shots, but they contracted "secondary cases" of measles from someone who had reported they had their shots as well.

It then goes on to say:

"No additional cases occurred among 231 contacts of secondary cases.

Conclusions. This is the first report of measles transmission from a twice vaccinated individual. The clinical presentation and laboratory data of the index were typical of measles in a na´ve individual. Secondary cases had robust anamnestic antibody responses. No tertiary cases occurred despite numerous contacts."

So the people who had their shots showed robust antibody response, even when they did contract it, and none of them spread the disease at all.

So both your links actually do NOT support your claim that vaccinated people who have not contracted the disease can spread the disease.

We all know there is a small percentage of people whom the vaccines don't work on, this document only confirms that, not your claim that vaccines themselves can cause the disease.

CrazyMom
02-11-2015, 01:07 PM
Our current outbreak is being compared to the 89-91 outbreak.

"Nevertheless, a resurgence of measles occurred during 1989–1991, again demonstrating the serious medical burden of the disease. More than 55,000 cases, 123 deaths, and 11,000 hospitalizations were reported. Two major causes of this epidemic were vaccine failure among a small percentage of school-aged children who had received 1 dose of measles vaccine and low measles vaccine coverage among preschool-aged children."

Measles Elimination in the United States (http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S1.long)

I figured since an article from Oxford Journals was posted about an anomalous case of measles....we should also read what they have to say about measles as a whole.

ikslo
02-11-2015, 01:25 PM
This whole thread is like arguing with a Christian who is trying to convert you. Pointless. Neither side is going to cave to the other.

And before the pro-vaxers come back with "but we have science on our side" - both sides (for and against vaccination) have valid arguments, both sides have science that can be quoted, and both sides just want what is best for their child. There are simply different viewpoints on what that is. Also, I hate when "statistics" are thrown in, because anyone who has ever taken a class in statistics knows that STATISTICS LIE.

Aroura
02-11-2015, 01:43 PM
Climate change deniers can qoute scientists too. But as with anti-vaccine scientists they are the minority. Anyone with any viewpoint, even flat earthers, can point out some argument in their favor. That doesn't make it a correct or sound argument.

But you are correct that that it is much like arguing with a Christian, and that neither is likely to change the others mind. It is hard to reason someone out of a position that they did not use reason to reach.

And I am being meaner than I intend, so guess I need a break from this discusion as well.

ikslo
02-11-2015, 01:58 PM
It is hard to reason someone out of a position that they did not use reason to reach.

Statements like this just show how people summarily discount other peoples viewpoints because they don't match their own. They can't possibly have used reason if it doesn't match my reasoning. I am smarter than everyone else. If you don't agree with me, you're stupid.

CrazyMom
02-11-2015, 02:15 PM
I agree that we're never going to agree. I also think arguing about it is largely pointless. That said...development of the current outbreak is a parenting concern and a legitimate news item for those with kids at risk. I'm going to attempt to reign in my comments/arguments. I think you all know how I feel at this point. LOL. But I will continue to post news items. (will even attempt to take a break from this for a while) I think that's a fair compromise.

Until the courts become involved (which thankfully is starting to happen)....the only thing parents can do... is vaccinate their kids, restrict unvaccinated people in the lives of their small children, and avoid public places with little ones too young or fragile to vaccinate.

Aroura
02-11-2015, 02:59 PM
Statements like this just show how people summarily discount other peoples viewpoints because they don't match their own. They can't possible have used reason if it doesn't match my reasoning. I am smarter than everyone else. If you don't agree with me, you're stupid.

I would just like to point out that I did realize this was a bit mean and wish I hadn't said it. But at the same time, I'm not discounting other viewpoints just because they don't match mine. I simply cannot, after looking at this issue for years and from many angles, see any reason in the anti-vaccine argument at all. There is no science behind it. It seems to stem mostly from misinformation and a distrust of big pharm (which I do understand), but I have never seen an actual reasoned argument against vaccines themselves. It is usually emotional, or stated that it should be parental choice without any sound arguments as to WHY that should be true.

So to be clear, I don't think you are stupid if you disagree with me, nor do I discount an argument that does not match my pre-existing argument. I'm sure you are pretty smart, actually, but you haven't presented any sound reasoning (nor has any other person against vaccines that I've ever seen, ever) as to why people should have a choice to not vaccinate.

I used to be a Christian after all, and am perfectly capable of changing my viewpoint on things when I see reasonable arguments made against my current viewpoint. But I have yet to see an actual reasoned argument for not vaccinating (discounting those who cannot vaccinate for health reasons, of course).

So my point with that statement was that I have yet to see, in this thread or anywhere, a reasoned argument for people who think vaccinations should be a parental choice. But I am open minded. If someone can give me some sound logic, or a study (not a debunked or discredited one, please) that backs up your particular point, I really am ready to listen, or read it.

ikslo
02-11-2015, 03:09 PM
distrust of big pharm

I'm sure you are pretty smart, actually, but you haven't presented any sound reasoning (nor has any other person against vaccines that I've ever seen, ever) as to why people should have a choice to not vaccinate.

But I have yet to see an actual reasoned argument for not vaccinating (discounting those who cannot vaccinate for health reasons, of course).

1. Sometimes distrust of big pharma is due to inside knowledge of the practices of big pharma. BTDT
2. I never presented any reason, sound or not, one way or the other. I never said my view (at least I don't think I did). My son is vaccinated.
3. So you admit that you agree those who can't for health reasons should be allowed to opt out, but you don't feel that those who make an educated decision to opt out AHEAD OF TIME on the basis that they don't want to take the chance that their child might be one of those with health issues who will react or be severely compromised should be allowed to do so? It's a risk either way. Live is a series of instances where you evaluate risk and make calculated decisions in the hopes of the best outcome.

We chose to vaccinate. But it was a choice. Taking away that choice is my issue.

I'm done now.

Aroura
02-11-2015, 03:45 PM
Just addressing point 3. For points 1 and 2, I don't really have a rebuttal.

No. Because people who have known issues have known issues. On what basis does a parent make a decision ahead of time to opt out? If they legitimately fear their child has an immune or seizure disorder or something else, then they ought to work that out with their doctor. Just guessing that your kid might have a bad reaction is not reasoning, it is completely fear based with nothing backing it up.
Should I be able to, without any genetic testing or family history of breast cancer, be allowed to have a doctor remove my pubescent teens breast tissue just because it might prevent a real disease that people can get? That's just crazy talk. And if you DO have a history of that in your family, then you would talk to your doctor, get tested, and make an INFORMED decision on preventative surgery.

The same would be true of vaccinations. A parent's vague worries are not a good reason. There are lots of things where the government has taken away your choice (or your illusion of choice anyway), for public safety. You can't drink and drive, you must wear seatbelts, you must pass a test and get a license to drive. Cyclists must wear helmets. You can no longer smoke cigarettes in public places.

All of these things, ALL OF THEM, used to be considered choices that people should have the liberty to make. The cigarette smokers have really been harping on this choice issue lately, too. But if your "choice" can cause a public health issue, then it becomes an issue for the entire public, and is no longer a private choice.

And yes, life IS a series of evaluating risk. But people need good, solid infor to make those choices. If they have inaccurate or pseudoscientific information that they are using, then their ability ot make a wise choice becomes compromised.

I'm glad you decided to vaccinate, sorry with the "you" specific sounding you. I just meant everyone arguing for choice, which you are arguing for, even if you yourself vaccinate.

I just want to people to educate themselves before making a decision. And by educate, I don't mean look up information that already has a bias towards your belief, I mean look at BOTH sides of the issue carefully. I have. The anti-vaccine crowd has not got a single argument that hold water that I have ever seen.

Do you think we should go back to having a choice to not seatbelt in our kids, or let smokers smoke everywhere, despite scientific showing evidence that second hand smoke can damage non-smokers? If you do, that's fine, I know some people who are very libertarian as well. I'm clearly more of an authoritarian.

But all the people we were talking to seem to have opted out of the discussion. I guess it really is hard to hear from people who disagree with you, and stay civil. But really, a good discussion with a lot of viewpoints is healthy!

Aroura
02-11-2015, 03:54 PM
I agree that we're never going to agree. I also think arguing about it is largely pointless. That said...development of the current outbreak is a parenting concern and a legitimate news item for those with kids at risk. I'm going to attempt to reign in my comments/arguments. I think you all know how I feel at this point. LOL. But I will continue to post news items. (will even attempt to take a break from this for a while) I think that's a fair compromise.

Until the courts become involved (which thankfully is starting to happen)....the only thing parents can do... is vaccinate their kids, restrict unvaccinated people in the lives of their small children, and avoid public places with little ones too young or fragile to vaccinate.

I don't know about "will never agree".

I belong to an atheist forum, and some of the people there can be real jerks when religious folks show up. I've tried to get them to ease up, because if they just stay calm and rational, you never know when your argument can change a mind, even sometime much later down the road.

There is a mod on that forums who came in as a hardcore fundy, argued a lot with people, and after a few years (yes years), eventually lost his faith based on all the arguments he'd heard from both sides. He realized Christianity made no sense, the bible was written by humans, and so forth. It took a long time, but because he was intelligent and full of questions and willing to entertain the other sides ideas, he eventually deconverted. My own story is similar. I fought it, I hated giving up my faith, but it no longer made sense after I'd talked to people who made sound arguments, and looked at all of it myself. It also took me years to fully change my mind, but I am thankful to a lot of people who were willing to face ridicule to state an unpopular viewpoint to me, and do it with logic and not cruel jabs.

Haven't you ever had your mind changed on a subject because of other's sound an logical arguments? :D

Anyway, I guess the point is moot, as if no one is listening, then we certainly can't change their minds...lol.

firefly77
02-11-2015, 04:09 PM
I'm pretty sure that this is my last message on this thread. It's been invading my day more than I would like (not that I don't love the dialogue, etc., etc.). I no joke dreamed about this thread last night.

I think someone, maybe alexsmom, posted this article:

Anti-Vaxxers resist persuasion: If they refuse, we have to force them to vaccinate their children for public health. (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/02/anti_vaxxers_resist_persuasion_if_they_refuse_we_h ave_to_force_them_to_vaccinate.html)

It's definitely written from a pro-vax perspective (that's putting it mildly - the author advocates forced immunization), but offers some insight (or at least affirmation that the whole thing is difficult) into how to deal with others whose ideas on this topic differ from our own. I like to imagine myself a critical thinker and willing to change my own ideas and opinions when they are proven to be incorrect, but when I feel attacked I am much more likely to dig in my heels - even when the perceived attacker is probably right.

firefly77
02-11-2015, 04:14 PM
The other one I thought was good (and I think alexsmom also posted this one) is from the perspective of the pediatric community was this one, also from Slate:

How do pediatricians work with anti-vaccine parents? MDs? frustrations, failures, and strategies. (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2015/02/how_do_pediatricians_work_with_anti_vaccine_parent s_mds_frustrations_failures.html)

OK, I think that's it for me. I'll take my responses offline (ha ha - c'mon!).

Aroura
02-11-2015, 05:06 PM
You are right, It's natural to dig in when you feel attacked. I certainly didn't mean to come off that way, and if I did, my apologies.

To that end, I think I'll also exit this thread and let it be as it.

sbweldon
02-20-2015, 11:50 AM
My heart goes out to everyone who has had kids with vaccine reactions. I know we all love our babies and would do anything to keep them healthy. No one one either side of this argument is purposely trying to hurt their kids or other people. I am a physician and even with all my training it's sometimes difficult to make sense of all the information out there. Personally, I am 100% a believer in vaccines for all people who do not have medical reasons for doing so to protect those who can't. It is a public heath issue the same as smoking in public places.

That being said, the reason I'm posting here is because I found this interesting video on human bias and why it's so hard for us to agree. It's a great video to watch even if you don't think of it in terms of vaccination. If it were about people disagreeing about which toothpaste to use it would be interesting to watch. It's just easy to use the vaccine debate as an example because it invokes such a passionate response.

http://youtu.be/Rzxr9FeZf1g

CrazyMom
02-20-2015, 12:28 PM
LOVE Scie-Show! Thanks for posting.