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  1. #51
    Senior Member Evolved Deb417's Avatar
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    Thanks Cara and Lakshmi.

    Let's see...
    Cara, yeah, meds...Ugh. I may try to ask about Vyvanse, who knows? Might help? Just wish I understood why he said the only other one he would prescribe was Stratera? Hmmmm...

    I had horrible reax. to the pill too when they put me on it at age 16 for recurring cysts and super heavy periods, I was chronically depressed for (no exaggeration here) almost 20years. It was only when I went off it to have Emma (well, a couple years before I had her actually) that I started to feel better, but still not great (they put me on anti-depressants which destroyed me in OTHER ways, went off those after a year of torture and docs continuing to say "you're not giving it a chance..."), and when I had Emma, I found out (b/c I bf her exclusive) that I actually have an auto-immune condition called Pernicious Anemia which I'd probably had for YEARS, and it prevents the absorption of B12 from your food! So I had chronically low B12, which can (duh) make you very depressed in and of itself, and what does the pill do? SAPS B vitamins from your system like mad. Double-whammy.

    Started taking monthly shots, my B12 levels were normal within a couple months and VOILA, it was like someone turned on the lights in a dark room!

    So I'm more than a little, um, apprehensive when Doctors say things like "you're not giving it a chance," or "take this pill to counteract the other pill..." and they don't dig a little deeper to try to figure out if maybe the patient isn't crazy, and maybe, you know, it really IS physical?

    I've taken her to a nutritionist, an herbalist, an osteopath! LOL Oh my, I feel like I've tried so many things. There were things that did help--giving her massive doses of EFAs (EPA in particular) really does help her moods, as do high-protein meals (which also help her sleep, it's just that there are so few she actually likes--I have considered letting her eat a hamburger every night though, and she makes herself eggs for breakfast quite often). I did all this on the off-chance that lack of sleep or poor nutrition was making her symptoms worse.

    Lakshmi and Susan, ok, you'll laugh. After the whole business about the Diorama, she came back with a list of materials, and when we went to get them, she was the ONLY of my three who behaved in the store. She was a perfect angel.

    Then tonight, rather than fight her unwillingness to sleep, I handed her the ancient greece Magic Treehouse book (which she's read, but so what?) and the research guide (which she hasn't) and told her she could read those if she wanted, I gave her the lightbulb back and we talked about what would be a fair bedtime for her. I really want my kids to eat breakfast at the same time, so I told her I wanted her to be able to get up at 8 a.m. and asked her if she thought that could work. She agreed that made sense and said she actually wanted to eat with us, so then I said she should count backwards from 8 am 10 hours b/c that's really the least she should sleep, and that gave her a 10 pm lights-out time. She smiled huge and gave me a big hug and promised to turn off the light then. We'll see, but I'm trying to give her what she needs while still getting the rest of us what we need.

    I'll keep trying to think of ways to approach her like that, while keeping my boundaries clear (like Susan suggested), will call the doctor about Vyvanse and we'll see what happens....I do think I could use a re-read of some positive discipline materials though. Did just a quick review today (woke up early to do it) and tried just a few things from there, and at least with the other two, they worked wonders. Hey, two out of three is an improvement right? LOL

    I also adopted the robot voice today--only raised my voice every so slightly one time, and it was to keep my youngest from crushing the cat. Just 1-2-3'd them the whole day and it felt good. It's amazing how stress and exhaustion can make you forget what you already know, or can get your off-track, and then it compounds itself and before you know it, you're totally off-the-rails and have to be reminded. It takes more *thought* I suppose, but ultimately less energy.
    U.S. History is my passion! I'm interested in spirited discussion with other HS parents trying to raise "patriots" in the USA in whatever way that is meaningful for them! Join my group: http://www.secularhomeschool.com/group/120/

    Mom to three girls: Emma (8), Lily (6) and Catie (3).

  2. #52
    Senior Member Arrived dbmamaz's Avatar
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    Sounds like you had a better day - so glad!
    Cara, homeschooling one
    Raven, ds 10, all around intense kid
    Orion, floundering recent graduate
    22 yo dd, not at home
    Inactive blog at longsummer

  3. #53
    Senior Member Evolved Deb417's Avatar
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    D'oh! Spoke too soon. Guess who came into my room all bleary-eyed and awake at 11:00? Yup. Light went off at 10, but back on probably five minutes later.

    Poor thing! I could go back to the melatonin, but even that only worked 50% of the time, I started worrying about long-term dependence....
    U.S. History is my passion! I'm interested in spirited discussion with other HS parents trying to raise "patriots" in the USA in whatever way that is meaningful for them! Join my group: http://www.secularhomeschool.com/group.php?groupid=120

    Mom to three girls: Emma (8), Lily (6) and Catie (3).

  4. #54
    Senior Member Evolved Deb417's Avatar
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    I just realized one thing I wasn't clear on in that previous post is that I found out about the pernicious anemia b/c she got VERY ill, lost weight like crazy at about 4 mos (after growing well and nursing like crazy), and a blood test on HER showed megaloblastic anemia. She was an emergency case, huge doses of B12 immediately, then they tested me and sure enough, low B12 (but not yet AS low as hers, they said I was probably absorbing SOME from the prenatal and other vitamins I was taking, which apparently absorb differently than the stuff in food) and anti-bodies to the two things that enable absorption: Intrinsic factor and parietal cells.

    She saved me. Had I formula fed, I'd have gradually gotten sicker over the years, and probably ended up with early dementia, neuropathy and a host of other irreversible problems, and it may have taken doctors a long time to figure it out b/c it's very rare in a young person.

    But I've often wondered if her neuro system was permanently messed up b/c of the two months it took for them to diagnose her problem. She was SO thin by the time I BEGGED them to take blood (they were like "What are we looking for?"), and blue, it was terrifying. They just told me "stop breastfeeding, your milk isn't rich enough." OMG, makes me angry just thinking about it.

    Anyway, we went to every specialist after that for evaluation, but they said she was too young to tell, and they weren't sure what to look for because they'd NEVER seen another case like hers--a child deprived of B12 alone--In fact, the docs at Boston Children's took all sorts of pictures and statements from us to use as a teaching test case. There were only two cases of breastfed babies showing up with this in 25 years, and the other was a strict vegan who didn't take vitamins.

    She had fine motor delay, and some hypotonia, so I always wondered what else might have been affected. We'll never know of course, and even if we did, it wouldn't change her current treatment I guess, but still, it probably weighs on the back of my mind and explains why I feel so "responsible" sometimes for the way she is.
    U.S. History is my passion! I'm interested in spirited discussion with other HS parents trying to raise "patriots" in the USA in whatever way that is meaningful for them! Join my group: http://www.secularhomeschool.com/group.php?groupid=120

    Mom to three girls: Emma (8), Lily (6) and Catie (3).

  5. #55
    Senior Member Arrived dbmamaz's Avatar
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    But guilt won't help you move forward,. It's good to be aware simply because yes, she has some physiological issues that might be out of her control.

    Btw, are you saying she turned her lights back on and you didn't notice? Can you check in on her to make sure the lights stay off?
    Cara, homeschooling one
    Raven, ds 10, all around intense kid
    Orion, floundering recent graduate
    22 yo dd, not at home
    Inactive blog at longsummer

  6. #56
    Senior Member Evolved Deb417's Avatar
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    I did check, I just missed it or she's sneaky and heard my door open and clicked them off just in time. I keep my door closed to keep out cars--husband is allergic
    U.S. History is my passion! I'm interested in spirited discussion with other HS parents trying to raise "patriots" in the USA in whatever way that is meaningful for them! Join my group: http://www.secularhomeschool.com/group.php?groupid=120

    Mom to three girls: Emma (8), Lily (6) and Catie (3).

  7. #57
    Senior Member Arrived dbmamaz's Avatar
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    I know it was a typo and he's allergic to cats, but I had a very funny visual in my head of a car sneaking in to your room and making your husband sneeze . . . Maybe it was lonely in the garage!

    I have often had to check. Orion to make sure his lights were off and threatened to take away his games at night I'd he didn't go to sleep. He's also gotten up to get on his pc after we were asleep. But for him, the meds helped with sleep. But you could come in at 10 and take the books or the bulb . . . Not as a punishment but because "it's hard for you to sleep when you would rather be reading, so I'll take them away at bedtime so they don't tempt you."

    For my daughter, she was just a night owl. Part of why I got her mostly out of high school was that she could not get enough sleep. Even skipping first period and me driving her to second gave her enough sleep to improve her mood . . .but then she would stay up late chatting w freinds on line . . .by now she was 16 and taking college classes and staying up later than I was doing homework, so I really couldn't do much, but the time she came swinging at me, she'd only had about 5 hours of sleep total the preceding 2 nights combined. Lack of sleep can really turn them in to monsters.

    I wanted to mention that Raven, I still often have to remind him to speak politely to me. I've been working on it for years, but he is getting better. "I'm not yelli g at you, so I would appreciate it if you didn't yell at me.". Similarly, if you do let Her stay up later, you can try (no guarantee) something like . .hey, I let you stay up late, maybe you can do something nice for me . . Like do your math when I ask, or not interupt your sisters when they are working. She does sound like a sweet kid, that appeal to fair play could work . .. Over time
    Cara, homeschooling one
    Raven, ds 10, all around intense kid
    Orion, floundering recent graduate
    22 yo dd, not at home
    Inactive blog at longsummer

  8. #58
    Senior Member Evolved Deb417's Avatar
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    OMG! Cars? BWAHAHAHA!! Yeah, that would be *cats,* two of them, with VERY long hair. LOL

    Today was an interesting mix--she did NOT want to get up, or shower, or dress, or do anything she needed to do so we could get to my youngest's swim class. Now, "Old Me" would have gotten anxious and progressively more irritated--starting super sweet, coaxing, encouraging, etc...and and would then have gotten gradually more frustrated, angry, etc...until I said something I didn't like the sound of, like "HURRY UP!" or "You're making us all late!"

    Today, I did it differently. I woke her up, told her the amount of time she had to get ready before she'd run out of time for breakfast, and went about my business. I offered her help roughly every 10 minutes, just in case she really needed help since she was SO tired from staying up so late, but she just whined and refused to budge. I kept giving her gentle updates like "Honey, now you only have 20 minutes until there won't be time to eat breakfast....Emma, I know you're hungry, once you're dressed and downstairs, how about some oatmeal?"

    And so on. She cut it pretty close, but did eventually start getting ready, and I just kept going, didn't slow down because of her, just kept her in my periphery and let her know I was there if she needed help. She took some, here and there, and made it down juuuuust in time to make some oatmeal, but not with enough time to eat it. Now "old mom" might have said "I'm sorry honey, next time come down faster and you'll have time to eat it all," but this time I said "Oh, that's frustrating, too hot to eat fast enough huh? How about putting it in a Tupperware to take with us? Here, i'll help you."

    Well, when I did that, her entire face lit up and she hugged me SO HARD and said "Thank you thank you Mommy! Thank you SO much!"

    Color me shocked! I think the kid may genuinely need HELP managing herself, she just can't do it. I'd said that to one of the doctors, and he said no, she's just impulsive and easily distracted, but under all that, she's very bright and willful and "natural consequences" would be the best bet for discipline. That's why we did the "Oops, you missed breakfast" method before.

    But now I think my Mommy gut was right the first time, she can't manage her own actions like most people can--and i mean really CAN'T.

    Another example was tonight: She did her laundry, but refused to fold it. I put it on her bed and told her she needed to put it away, but that--as usual--it's her chore to fold it (she's done this many times before, always reluctantly, but she's perfectly capable, just doesn't like it, I mean, who does right?).

    Now Old me would have said "Well if you don't do it, it's just going to sit there until you do." New Me talked to DH (who was home by then) and asked him to have a talk with her--we'd discussed a new way of talking to her, so he gave it a go. He sat with her and asked her what was stopping her from doing it today, since she's done it before and knows how. She said it's like she has two voices in her head--one that says "Just do it already, it's no big deal" and the other that says "I don't WANT TO!"

    So he asked her if she thought she was the only one who had those kinds of "voices" in her head? And she said YES. He told her "NO!!" and admitted that he hears the same stuff all the time! When he wakes up at 5:30 am, when he has to work on the weekend, when it's time to mow the lawn, you name it! LOL She was SHOCKED, she genuinely though we all WANT to do everything we're doing!

    So they had a good laugh about that, and he told her the trick is to listen to the voice telling her to do the thing she knows she should do, whatever it is, because when she's done she can still do whatever the other voice wants and enjoy it even more then!

    He came down and told me what happened, we went up about 15 min later and found her sitting on the floor with ultra-neat piles of folded clothes building around her. We praised the heck out of her of course, and when I told her how proud I was of her for the effort she was putting in, she said "I had help Mama, I asked for help."

    I didn't understand at first b/c who could have helped her, but she meant my DH and what he said to her helped! I almost cried, its was so sweet!

    So I'm hoping we're on to something here--that she really wants help, and not help doing more FOR her or giving in to her, but just help shepherding her through her tasks. I'm still not sure how it relates to school work, I'm hoping some of this will work with that too, but we'll see. It's a start anyway
    U.S. History is my passion! I'm interested in spirited discussion with other HS parents trying to raise "patriots" in the USA in whatever way that is meaningful for them! Join my group: http://www.secularhomeschool.com/group.php?groupid=120

    Mom to three girls: Emma (8), Lily (6) and Catie (3).

  9. #59
    Senior Member Arrived dbmamaz's Avatar
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    awesome! it makes me think of the executive function problems . . . but i swear i've also seen that as part of adhd - trouble getting things done on time, trouble managing time. But yes, its trying - but like with Orion, he always forgets certain chores, and if we remind him, he thanks us and does it. its really frustrating because we want HIM to remember . ..but i'm pretty sure he is really just forgetting. Like every time he makes himself lunch I have to call him back in to put away his stuff . . he does it willingly, he just cant remember. In fact one time I was in bed and the boys were nearby playing with something. Orion suggested they play with something else, and Raven said OK! Then after a pause, Raven said, "Do you think we should put this away first?" Orion said "Oh, yeah, I'll put this part away and you put that part away, ok?" He knew it was the right thing to do, it just didnt occur to him.

    its so so hard to stay patient, but there is more peace in the house.

    that is really sweet about your daughter and your husband!
    Cara, homeschooling one
    Raven, ds 10, all around intense kid
    Orion, floundering recent graduate
    22 yo dd, not at home
    Inactive blog at longsummer

  10. #60
    Senior Member Arrived Accidental Homeschooler's Avatar
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    That is wonderful. Maybe the changes you started make her feel like you are on her side (not that you didn't want to be, but maybe she just wasn't feeling it). When someone is not on your side they are, by definition, the enemy and will be treated accordingly.
    Julie,
    home schooling two dds 16(still waters) and 9(force of nature)

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